Reversedragon: Usage notes

2025-07-31T12:07:31Z

Usage notes

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:07, 31 July 2025
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	{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean compound"><li>		{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean compound"><li>
	<onlyinclude><dfn class="field_trotsky manual" data-dimension="S2" data-qid="43,02" data-numbersign="404" data-field="" data-series="" data-work="" data-chapter="" data-tale="" data-object="" data-note="" data-lexeme="">{{~~IM3~~}}{{#if: {{{1\|}}} \| [[E:Q43,02\|{{{1}}}]] \| [[E:Q43,02\|East Germany was too small to be Trotskyism]] }}{{WaveScore\|sum=1\|quilt=1\|ply=1}}</dfn></onlyinclude>		<onlyinclude><dfn class="field_trotsky manual" data-dimension="S2" data-qid="43,02" data-numbersign="404" data-field="" data-series="" data-work="" data-chapter="" data-tale="" data-object="" data-note="" data-lexeme="">{{IS2}}{{#if: {{{1\|}}} \| [[E:Q43,02\|{{{1}}}]] \| [[E:Q43,02\|East Germany was too small to be Trotskyism]] }}{{WaveScore\|sum=1\|quilt=1\|ply=1}}</dfn></onlyinclude>
	</li></ol><!-- change summary template: copy or update fake Item from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNN\|Q43,02]] --> __NOTOC__		</li></ol><!-- change summary template: copy or update fake Item from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNN\|Q43,02]] --> __NOTOC__

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	{{HueClaim \|P=item type\| {{Template:S2}} }}		{{HueClaim \|P=item type\| {{Template:S2}} }}
	{{HueRoster\|EP=PPPA/L\|lang=en\| {{E:Q43,02}} \| [[E:East Germany was too small to be Trotskyism]] }}		{{HueRoster\|EP=PPPA/L\|lang=en\| {{E:Q43,02}} \| [[E:East Germany was too small to be Trotskyism]] }}
	{{HueClaim \|EP=PPPA\|lang=en\| ~~Why did Trotskyists not consider~~ East Germany to be ~~progress?~~ }}		{{HueClaim \|EP=PPPA\|lang=en\| Because East Germany was smaller than a world workers' state, it was no ally of Trotskyism \| When Trotskyists say there can't be socialism in one country, part of what they mean is that countries or blocs of countries need to be big in order to materially survive }}
	{{HueRoster\|EP=P42\| -- }} <!-- en: QID references -->		{{HueRoster\|EP=P42\| -- }} <!-- en: QID references -->
	{{HueRoster\|EP=P34\| {{E:Q92}} \| {{E:Q41,04}} }} <!-- en: field historical materialism -->		{{HueRoster\|EP=P34\| {{E:Q92}} \| {{E:Q41,04}} }} <!-- en: field historical materialism -->
	{{HueRoster\|EP=P3\| -- }} <!-- en: sub-case of -->		{{HueRoster\|EP=P3\| -- }} <!-- en: sub-case of -->
	{{HueRoster\|EP=P4\| {{E:Q618/MX\|thought experiment involving East Germany}} [[Category:East Germany thought experiments ontology]] }} <!-- en: case of -->		{{HueRoster\|EP=P4\| {{E:Q618/IV\|derived Trotskyist proposition}} \| {{E:Q618/MX\|thought experiment involving East Germany}} [[Category:East Germany thought experiments ontology]] }} <!-- en: case of -->
	{{HueRoster\|EP=P5\| -- }} <!-- en: super-case of -->		{{HueRoster\|EP=P5\| -- }} <!-- en: super-case of -->
	</dl>		</dl>
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	<dl class="wikitable hue">		<dl class="wikitable hue">
	{{HueRoster\|EP=P14\| -- }}		{{HueRoster\|EP=P14\| MDem 4.3/444N "All Trotskyisms" }}
	</dl>		</dl>

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	</dl>		</dl>

	== ~~[[User:Reversedragon/FirstNineThousand\|Prototype]] notes~~ ==		=== Wavebuilder characterizations ===

	<~~ol start="4000"~~ class="hue ~~clean~~">		<dl class="wikitable hue data_wavebuild three">
	</~~li><li class="field_trotsky" value="4302" data-dimension="S2">~~East Germany ~~was too small~~ to be Trotskyism ~~-> relatively likely to be the answer you actually get. East Germany small,~~ Trotskyism ~~big. this has never been~~ a ~~satisfying answer to me because it doesn~~'~~t explain how any group of countries ever~~ <em>~~gets</em> big enough to form Trotskyism without inevitably forming into unacceptably small "Stalinisms" first.~~		{{WaveRoute\| {{E:Q618/IV\|East Germany had the wrong internal structure to be Trotskyism}} \| {{E:Q618/IV\|Trotskyism's internal structure is a world workers' state}} \| {{E:Q43,02}} }} <!-- en: WITH ?? PRODUCES ?? -->
	</~~li></ol~~>		</dl>

	== Usage notes ==		== Usage notes ==

	<!-- == References ==		This is the claim that Trotskyists turned against East Germany specifically because it had a border while being smaller than a world workers' state. This claim at least partially ignores the observation that East Germany was briefly occupied [[Term:Stalinists\|by the Soviet Union]], considering this irrelevant to the actual material factors that motivate Trotskyists to end up at their final decisions. However, this claim is not mutually exclusive with others; it does not rule out the size of the workers' state not being the only reason.

			Reasons to claim that Trotskyists believe this include statements by Trotskyists that "there can't be socialism in one country" or "the world revolution can't stop at one country". This claim interprets these remarks very literally in terms of the physical structure of countries, as having the implication that aside from the matter of succeeding in creating a [[E:capable proletarian subpopulation\|proletarian world population]] Trotskyists also believe in a macroeconomic principle about the daily functioning of workers' states that workers' states will not last or survive if they are too small in area with too few people. If Trotskyists believed this, this would create a claim which is logically coherent on the surface. In a country like North Korea or East Germany, a lot of problems stem from the isolation of the country from other countries, or said another way, the isolation of a small population from larger areas of people. On the flip side, when other countries such as China and Vietnam have opened up to exports and imports, avoiding becoming totally isolated, it has led to more prosperous countries and resilient [[E:Deng Xiaoping Thought\|party-nations]] without entirely destroying Marxism. Thus, there is reason to believe that larger areas of people may genuinely have better economic outlooks than small, isolated areas of people, providing a strange new backdoor argument <em>in favor of Trotskyism</em> if Trotskyists would only become more accepting of socialism-in-one-country as it applies to supranational federations or blocs of workers' states that eventually form into one country. One possible objection to this particular model, of course, is that in focusing on economic links and productivity it may function better as a model of how to empower the bourgeoisie than how to empower a population of workers. Either way, the number of possible shapes of workers' states [[E:meta-Marxism\|is vast]] and this is one of many possibilities beyond a simplistic [[E:early Trotskyism\|early-Leninist]] model of "world revolution immediately".

			=== Falsification criteria ===

			This claim is largely a claim about Trotskyism. If it can be shown that Trotskyists generally reject [[E:graph economics\|fine-scale social-graph-based theories]] of the viability of big versus small [[Term:socioeconomy\|workers' states]] and genuinely believe that that societies outlast Liberal-republicanism on the sheer quality of being "revolutionary", this claim can be marked false.

			If some forms of Trotskyism are aligned with this claim and some forms reject it, then it should not be marked false, but should be clarified into new claims about each form of Trotskyism or each relevant Trotskyist group.
			<!--
			== References ==

	<references>		<references>
	<ref name="m"></ref>		<ref name="m"></ref>
	</references> -->		</references> -->

Reversedragon: Reversedragon moved page Ontology:Q4302 to Ontology:Q43,02: Moving numbered Item to TTS-pronounceable title

2025-07-31T10:15:35Z

Reversedragon moved page Ontology:Q4302 to Ontology:Q43,02: Moving numbered Item to TTS-pronounceable title

← Older revision	Revision as of 10:15, 31 July 2025
(No difference)

Reversedragon: copy or update fake Item from Q43,02

2025-07-31T10:15:20Z

copy or update fake Item from Q43,02

New page

{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean compound"><li>
<onlyinclude><dfn class="field_trotsky manual" data-dimension="S2" data-qid="43,02" data-numbersign="404" data-field="" data-series="" data-work="" data-chapter="" data-tale="" data-object="" data-note="" data-lexeme="">{{IM3}}{{#if: {{{1|}}} | [[E:Q43,02|{{{1}}}]] | [[E:Q43,02|East Germany was too small to be Trotskyism]] }}{{WaveScore|sum=1|quilt=1|ply=1}}</dfn></onlyinclude>
</li></ol> __NOTOC__

== Core characteristics ==

<dl class="wikitable hue">
{{HueClaim |P=item type| {{Template:S2}} }}
{{HueRoster|EP=PPPA/L|lang=en| {{E:Q43,02}} | [[E:East Germany was too small to be Trotskyism]] }}
{{HueClaim |EP=PPPA|lang=en| Why did Trotskyists not consider East Germany to be progress? }}
{{HueRoster|EP=P42| -- }} 
{{HueRoster|EP=P34| {{E:Q92}} | {{E:Q41,04}} }} 
{{HueRoster|EP=P3| -- }} 
{{HueRoster|EP=P4| {{E:Q618/MX|thought experiment involving East Germany}} [[Category:East Germany thought experiments ontology]] }} 
{{HueRoster|EP=P5| -- }} 
</dl>

=== Components ===

<dl class="wikitable hue">
{{HueRoster|P=model combines claims| -- }}
</dl>

=== Use in thesis portals ===

<dl class="wikitable hue">
{{HueRoster|EP=P14| -- }}
</dl>

== Wavebuilder combinations ==

<dl class="wikitable hue data_wavebuild three">
{{WaveBuildNone| -- | -- | -- }} 
</dl>

== [[User:Reversedragon/FirstNineThousand|Prototype]] notes ==

<ol start="4000" class="hue clean">
</li><li class="field_trotsky" value="4302" data-dimension="S2">East Germany was too small to be Trotskyism -> relatively likely to be the answer you actually get. East Germany small, Trotskyism big. this has never been a satisfying answer to me because it doesn't explain how any group of countries ever <em>gets</em> big enough to form Trotskyism without inevitably forming into unacceptably small "Stalinisms" first.
</li></ol>

== Usage notes ==

Ontology:Q43,02 - Revision history

Reversedragon: Usage notes

Reversedragon: Reversedragon moved page Ontology:Q4302 to Ontology:Q43,02: Moving numbered Item to TTS-pronounceable title

Reversedragon: copy or update fake Item from Q43,02