Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q12,10 - Revision history

Reversedragon: Reversedragon moved page Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q1210 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q12,10: Moving numbered Item to TTS-pronounceable title

2026-05-05T12:26:30Z

Reversedragon moved page Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q1210 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q12,10: Moving numbered Item to TTS-pronounceable title

← Older revision	Revision as of 12:26, 5 May 2026
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Reversedragon: numbers

2026-05-05T10:14:53Z

numbers

Reversedragon: copy markup from Q64,43 Edgeworth's dialectic

2026-05-05T09:11:06Z

copy markup from Q64,43 Edgeworth's dialectic

New page

{{NextNineThousand|PPPA=class traitor from specific field|User=RD|E=Q12,10|Contents=y}}
== Main entry ==
{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean field_ML">

{{li|start=y|I=S0/ML|Q=12,10|Q2=1210}}class traitor from specific field / class traitor from specific field who is suitable for becoming Leninist theorist or revolutionary; Mao counts, even Gramsci arguably counts, but someone like Althusser explicitly does not count

</li></ol>

== Fields ==
<ol class="hue clean terse field_ML">

{{li|I=S0/ML|Q=12,03|Q2=1203}}class traitor from Law
{{li|I=S0/ML|Q=12,04|Q2=1204}}class traitor from journalism -> it's a little hilarious that innumerable people will claim to be this and probably no one is.
{{li|I=S0/ML|Q=12,05|Q2=1205}}class traitor from medicine
{{li|I=S0/ML|Q=12,06|Q2=1206}}class traitor from religion
{{li|I=S0/ML|Q=12,07|Q2=1207}}class traitor from the arts

{{li|I=S0/ML|Q=12,09|Q2=1209}}class traitor from peasantry -> that wording isn't {{em|necessary}}, but there have been times peasants were considered "petty producers", so sometimes it fits.

</li></ol>

== Class traitors in fiction ==
<ol class="hue clean terse field_ML">

{{li|start=y|I=S1/ML|Q=618|Q2=618}}lawyer characters becoming Lenin / characters that would be lawyers becoming Communist theorists -> I still think this is one of the most epic fictional tropes I have (never) ever seen.

{{li|I=S1/ML|Q=618|Q2=618}}doctor characters becoming Che Guevara / characters that would be doctors becoming Communist theorists or revolutionaries

{{li|I=S1/ML|Q=618|Q2=618}}preacher characters becoming Stalin / characters that would be religious leaders becoming Communist theorists -> for completeness.

{{li|I=S1/ML/IV|Q=618|Q2=618}}characters that would be journalists becoming Communist theorists or revolutionaries -> Trotskyist theorists.
{{li|I=S1/ML/W |Q=618|Q2=618}}characters that would be journalists or educators becoming Communist leaders -> Gramsci. I hesitate to put him on the label given his dubious success.

{{li|I=S1/ML/MZ|Q=618|Q2=618}}peasant characters becoming Mao / characters that would be peasants becoming Communist theorists or leaders -> can't forget this one. might be one of the most expected and least weird paths for producing Marxist theorists.<br/>
it makes you think, though. how come, if you list out all the successful Communist theorists in the world, you never find any that are workers? they're always from groups Lenin or Stalin would have at some point labeled the bourgeoisie or "the petty producers" or some synonym of those that amounts to 'the strawberry classes that are tiny islands'. and it isn't because "Marxism is bourgeois" or anything like that. if it was it would be a lot harder for there to be any peasant revolutions, but those have happened.

{{li|I=S1/ML/JC/MZ|Q=618|Q2=618}}peasant characters becoming Mao / serf characters becoming Kim Il-sung -> Kim Il-sung's relatives came from a family of serfs, then they all aided the Korean army in various ways, because the overall conflict had been going on for two generations or more and Kim Il-sung was basically the second attempt or so. [https://www.marxists.org/archive//kim-il-sung/bio/rev-act.pdf] that book began with a lot of weird praise for Kim Il-sung's family, because they always do, but it was useful. I didn't know that.

{{li|I=S1/ML/MX|Q=618|Q2=618}}artist characters becoming Communist theorists / characters that would be art creators (writers, directors) becoming Communist theorists -> this is going to be one of the most obscure ones because it's one of the most obscure routes in real life. there's like, me, and nobody well known that I can think of.<br/>
okay, I guess I have to take a moment to point out that there are like a thousand Western-Marxist theorists that have tried to do this and failed. I don't think any of that counts. Western-Marxism is so uniquely bad because it makes its entire thing about "biases" and "consciousness" and then fails to understand how exactly capitalism produces culture or creates popular understandings of culture products whatsoever much less how to get even Western-Marxist theorists themselves to become conscious of classes and class layouts inside capitalism. like, a lot of the way Western-Marxist theorists aren't even Marxists, they're anarchists, depending on what you consider anarchism to be and whether you consider its number one value to be "freedom". if you do, then Western-Marxism may as well be called Western Anarchism.

</li></ol>

</dl>
== Ideologies or fields ==

* (none)


[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:14, 5 May 2026
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	== Class traitors in fiction ==		== Class traitors in fiction ==
	<ol class="hue clean terse field_ML">		<ol class="hue clean terse field_ML">
			{{li\|start=y\|I=S0/Fy/ML\|Q=36,16\|Q2=3616}}class traitor from specific field (fiction)

	{{li~~\|start=y~~\|I=S1/ML\|Q=~~618~~\|Q2=~~618~~}}lawyer characters becoming Lenin / characters that would be lawyers becoming Communist theorists -> I still think this is one of the most epic fictional tropes I have (never) ever seen.		{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ML\|Q=36,18\|Q2=3618}}lawyer characters becoming Lenin / characters that would be lawyers becoming Communist theorists -> I still think this is one of the most epic fictional tropes I have (never) ever seen.

	{{li\|I=S1/ML\|Q=~~618~~\|Q2=~~618~~}}doctor characters becoming Che Guevara / characters that would be doctors becoming Communist theorists or revolutionaries		{{li\|I=S1/ML\|Q=35,83\|Q2=3583}}doctor characters becoming Che Guevara / characters that would be doctors becoming Communist theorists or revolutionaries

	{{li\|I=S1/ML\|Q=~~618~~\|Q2=~~618~~}}preacher characters becoming Stalin / characters that would be religious leaders becoming Communist theorists -> for completeness.		{{li\|I=S1/ML\|Q=35,81\|Q2=3581}}preacher characters becoming Stalin / characters that would be religious leaders becoming Communist theorists -> for completeness.

	{{li\|I=S1/ML/IV\|Q=~~618~~\|Q2=~~618~~}}characters that would be journalists becoming Communist theorists or revolutionaries -> Trotskyist theorists.		{{li\|I=S1/ML/IV\|Q=35,66\|Q2=3566}}characters that would be journalists becoming Communist theorists or revolutionaries -> Trotskyist theorists.
	{{li\|I=S1/ML/W \|Q=~~618~~\|Q2=~~618~~}}characters that would be journalists or educators becoming Communist leaders -> Gramsci. I hesitate to put him on the label given his dubious success.		{{li\|I=S1/ML/W \|Q=35,66\|Q2=3566}}characters that would be journalists or educators becoming Communist leaders -> Gramsci. I hesitate to put him on the label given his dubious success.

	{{li\|I=S1/ML/MZ\|Q=~~618~~\|Q2=~~618~~}}peasant characters becoming Mao / characters that would be peasants becoming Communist theorists or leaders -> can't forget this one. might be one of the most expected and least weird paths for producing Marxist theorists.<br/>		{{li\|I=S1/ML/MZ\|Q=35,80\|Q2=3580}}peasant characters becoming Mao / characters that would be peasants becoming Communist theorists or leaders -> can't forget this one. might be one of the most expected and least weird paths for producing Marxist theorists.<br/>
	it makes you think, though. how come, if you list out all the successful Communist theorists in the world, you never find any that are workers? they're always from groups Lenin or Stalin would have at some point labeled the bourgeoisie or "the petty producers" or some synonym of those that amounts to 'the strawberry classes that are tiny islands'. and it isn't because "Marxism is bourgeois" or anything like that. if it was it would be a lot harder for there to be any peasant revolutions, but those have happened.		it makes you think, though. how come, if you list out all the successful Communist theorists in the world, you never find any that are workers? they're always from groups Lenin or Stalin would have at some point labeled the bourgeoisie or "the petty producers" or some synonym of those that amounts to 'the strawberry classes that are tiny islands'. and it isn't because "Marxism is bourgeois" or anything like that. if it was it would be a lot harder for there to be any peasant revolutions, but those have happened.

	{{li\|I=S1/ML/JC/MZ\|Q=~~618~~\|Q2=~~618~~}}~~peasant characters becoming Mao /~~ serf characters becoming Kim Il-sung -> Kim Il-sung's relatives came from a family of serfs, then they all aided the Korean army in various ways, because the overall conflict had been going on for two generations or more and Kim Il-sung was basically the second attempt or so. [https://www.marxists.org/archive//kim-il-sung/bio/rev-act.pdf] that book began with a lot of weird praise for Kim Il-sung's family, because they always do, but it was useful. I didn't know that.		{{li\|I=S1/ML/JC/MZ\|Q=35,80\|Q2=3580}}serf characters becoming Kim Il-sung -> Kim Il-sung's relatives came from a family of serfs, then they all aided the Korean army in various ways, because the overall conflict had been going on for two generations or more and Kim Il-sung was basically the second attempt or so. [https://www.marxists.org/archive//kim-il-sung/bio/rev-act.pdf] that book began with a lot of weird praise for Kim Il-sung's family, because they always do, but it was useful. I didn't know that.

	{{li\|I=S1/ML/MX\|Q=~~618~~\|Q2=~~618~~}}artist characters becoming Communist theorists / characters that would be art creators (writers, directors) becoming Communist theorists -> this is going to be one of the most obscure ones because it's one of the most obscure routes in real life. there's like, me, and nobody well known that I can think of.<br/>		{{li\|I=S1/ML/MX\|Q=35,82\|Q2=3582}}artist characters becoming Communist theorists / characters that would be art creators (writers, directors) becoming Communist theorists -> this is going to be one of the most obscure ones because it's one of the most obscure routes in real life. there's like, me, and nobody well known that I can think of.<br/>
	okay, I guess I have to take a moment to point out that there are like a thousand Western-Marxist theorists that have tried to do this and failed. I don't think any of that counts. Western-Marxism is so uniquely bad because it makes its entire thing about "biases" and "consciousness" and then fails to understand how exactly capitalism produces culture or creates popular understandings of culture products whatsoever much less how to get even Western-Marxist theorists themselves to become conscious of classes and class layouts inside capitalism. like, a lot of the way Western-Marxist theorists aren't even Marxists, they're anarchists, depending on what you consider anarchism to be and whether you consider its number one value to be "freedom". if you do, then Western-Marxism may as well be called Western Anarchism.		okay, I guess I have to take a moment to point out that there are like a thousand Western-Marxist theorists that have tried to do this and failed. I don't think any of that counts. Western-Marxism is so uniquely bad because it makes its entire thing about "biases" and "consciousness" and then fails to understand how exactly capitalism produces culture or creates popular understandings of culture products whatsoever much less how to get even Western-Marxist theorists themselves to become conscious of classes and class layouts inside capitalism. like, a lot of the way Western-Marxist theorists aren't even Marxists, they're anarchists, depending on what you consider anarchism to be and whether you consider its number one value to be "freedom". if you do, then Western-Marxism may as well be called Western Anarchism.