Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q19,04 - Revision history

Reversedragon: field: morality or ethics

2026-09-06T11:39:31Z

field: morality or ethics

Reversedragon: underground Bolshevik newspaper which is published outside Russia

2026-08-21T04:10:55Z

underground Bolshevik newspaper which is published outside Russia

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:10, 21 August 2026
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	{{li\|I=S1/MN\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}"the underground" referring to Communist party [https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1975/lenin1/chap17.htm] / ({{9k\|RD/Q61,20}}) -> as a fan of Undertale, you can see why this quote made me pause for a moment. I don't think it was intentional symbolism. really, it's hilarious to imagine [[:Category:Auldernet (RD)\|a world in which it was]]. that is not our world.		{{li\|I=S1/MN\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}"the underground" referring to Communist party [https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1975/lenin1/chap17.htm] / ({{9k\|RD/Q61,20}}) -> as a fan of Undertale, you can see why this quote made me pause for a moment. I don't think it was intentional symbolism. really, it's hilarious to imagine [[:Category:Auldernet (RD)\|a world in which it was]]. that is not our world.

			{{li\|I=S1/MN\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}underground Bolshevik newspaper which is printed outside Russia [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1910/mar/11.htm] -> the closer I look at the early history of the Bolshevik party the more I keep seeing events that occur across international lines as critical moments in it.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	<ol class="hue clean terse {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">		<ol class="hue clean terse {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">
	{{li\|start=y		{{li\|start=y
	\|I=Z1/IV \|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104}}{{TTS\|IV\|Fourth}} / Trotskyism		\|I=Z1/MN \|Q=49,11\|Q2=4911}}{{TTS\|MN\|early Marxism}} / Lenin
			{{li\|I=Z1/IV \|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104}}{{TTS\|IV\|Fourth}} / Trotskyism
	{{li\|I=Z1/ML \|Q=40,01\|Q2=4001}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / [[EC:9k/RD/Q4000\|Stalinism]] (Soviet Union)		{{li\|I=Z1/ML \|Q=40,01\|Q2=4001}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / [[EC:9k/RD/Q4000\|Stalinism]] (Soviet Union)
	{{li\|I=Z1/ML \|Q=41,03\|Q2=4103}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / Stalin's Marxism (2020s)		{{li\|I=Z1/ML \|Q=41,03\|Q2=4103}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / Stalin's Marxism (2020s)

Reversedragon: Liquidators are partially defined by persecuting Bolsheviks - Lenin Collected Works

2026-08-21T04:07:37Z

Liquidators are partially defined by persecuting Bolsheviks - Lenin Collected Works

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	<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">		<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/DX/IV\|Q=40,66\|Q2=4066}}Liquidators are partially defined by persecuting Bolsheviks / The legalist who sets himself against the underground party (illegal party; revolutionary party) while considering his own party equal to it is nothing but a liquidator / The "equality" between an illegal Social Democrat (Bolshevik) and the legalist who is safeguarded by his divorce from the party is the equality between worker and capitalist -> oh my gosh. this means something in relation to Trotskyism, but I'm not sure what it means.<br/>		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/DX/IV\|Q=40,66\|Q2=4066}}Liquidators are partially defined by persecuting Bolsheviks / The legalist who sets himself against the underground party (illegal party; revolutionary party) while considering his own party equal to it is nothing but a liquidator / The "equality" between an illegal Social Democrat (Bolshevik) ... and the legalist who is safeguarded by his divorce from the party is the equality between worker and capitalist [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1910/mar/11.htm] [https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1975/lenin1/chap17.htm] -><br/>
			{{i\|[old]}} oh my gosh. this means something in relation to Trotskyism, but I'm not sure what it means.<br/>
	A) (obvious meaning) Liberal-republicans that try to absorb Communists are liquidators. B) Trotskyists that secede from the Fourth International are potential liquidators depending on [[E:Socialist Workers' Party getting banned by United States political parties\|how involuntary]] it really was. {{a\|title=A letter to Trotskyists throughout the world\|href=https://archive.is/JCdgs}} C) people who defend Stalin's government while it persecutes Trotskyists are improperly liquidating the Fourth International, only when and because there is something similar to initial class rule emerging inside the Soviet Union in said situation which is slowly generating a strawberry or blue government<br/>		A) (obvious meaning) Liberal-republicans that try to absorb Communists are liquidators. B) Trotskyists that secede from the Fourth International are potential liquidators depending on [[E:Socialist Workers' Party getting banned by United States political parties\|how involuntary]] it really was. {{a\|title=A letter to Trotskyists throughout the world\|href=https://archive.is/JCdgs}} C) people who defend Stalin's government while it persecutes Trotskyists are improperly liquidating the Fourth International, only when and because there is something similar to initial class rule emerging inside the Soviet Union in said situation which is slowly generating a strawberry or blue government<br/>
	the thing that has always been a little bit of a mystery to me in case C is: how did the bureaucrats start 'multiplying' and generating an initial class rule in the first place? what was even causing that? I still don't quite understand it. and that's why at first I found it really hard to believe		the thing that has always been a little bit of a mystery to me in case C is: how did the bureaucrats start 'multiplying' and generating an initial class rule in the first place? what was even causing that? I still don't quite understand it. and that's why at first I found it really hard to believe

			{{li\|I=S1/MN\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}"the underground" referring to Communist party [https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1975/lenin1/chap17.htm] / ({{9k\|RD/Q61,20}}) -> as a fan of Undertale, you can see why this quote made me pause for a moment. I don't think it was intentional symbolism. really, it's hilarious to imagine [[:Category:Auldernet (RD)\|a world in which it was]]. that is not our world.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Liquidators are partially defined by persecuting Bolsheviks

2026-08-21T02:46:37Z

Liquidators are partially defined by persecuting Bolsheviks

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:46, 21 August 2026
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	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

	=== Subjective themes ===		== Subjective themes ==
	<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">		<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">

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	== Related ==		== Related ==
	~~<!--~~
	<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">		<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/IV\|~~tradition~~=\|Q=41,41\|Q2=~~4141~~}}		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/DX/IV\|Q=40,66\|Q2=4066}}Liquidators are partially defined by persecuting Bolsheviks / The legalist who sets himself against the underground party (illegal party; revolutionary party) while considering his own party equal to it is nothing but a liquidator / The "equality" between an illegal Social Democrat (Bolshevik) and the legalist who is safeguarded by his divorce from the party is the equality between worker and capitalist -> oh my gosh. this means something in relation to Trotskyism, but I'm not sure what it means.<br/>
			A) (obvious meaning) Liberal-republicans that try to absorb Communists are liquidators. B) Trotskyists that secede from the Fourth International are potential liquidators depending on [[E:Socialist Workers' Party getting banned by United States political parties\|how involuntary]] it really was. {{a\|title=A letter to Trotskyists throughout the world\|href=https://archive.is/JCdgs}} C) people who defend Stalin's government while it persecutes Trotskyists are improperly liquidating the Fourth International, only when and because there is something similar to initial class rule emerging inside the Soviet Union in said situation which is slowly generating a strawberry or blue government<br/>
			the thing that has always been a little bit of a mystery to me in case C is: how did the bureaucrats start 'multiplying' and generating an initial class rule in the first place? what was even causing that? I still don't quite understand it. and that's why at first I found it really hard to believe

	</li></ol~~> --~~>		</li></ol>

	== Ideologies or fields ==		== Ideologies or fields ==

Reversedragon: Show not the goal but show also the path

2026-08-20T07:55:15Z

Show not the goal but show also the path

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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Tribal populations (?) will recognize and appreciate the power of workers to stop the exploiters -> I don't know who the Kaffirs are.		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Tribal populations (?) will recognize and appreciate the power of workers to stop the exploiters -> I don't know who the Kaffirs are.

	{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Intentions alone cannot make you Progressive or Reactionary / The ends are not accessible without control over the effects of the means -> there are a lot more small fragments of meta-Marxism in Trotsky than I realized		{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Intentions alone cannot make you Progressive or Reactionary / The ends are not accessible without control over the effects of the means / Show not the goal but show also the path (Lassalle) -> there are a lot more small fragments of meta-Marxism in Trotsky than I realized

	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Deceive unions when necessary / "Maneuvers and subterfuge" are in this case only methods of valid self-defense against a perfidious reformist bureaucracy (trade union bureaucracy; Soviet bureaucracy) (Lenin, Trotsky) -> he specifically refers to the trade union bureaucracy here but the context makes it amply obvious he does mean either one		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Deceive unions when necessary / "Maneuvers and subterfuge" are in this case only methods of valid self-defense against a perfidious reformist bureaucracy (trade union bureaucracy; Soviet bureaucracy) (Lenin, Trotsky) -> he specifically refers to the trade union bureaucracy here but the context makes it amply obvious he does mean either one
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Permissible and obligatory are those and only those means which unite the revolutionary proletariat, fill their hearts with irreconcilable hostility to oppression, teach them contempt for official morality and its democratic echoers, imbue them with consciousness of their own historic mission, raise their courage and spirit of self-sacrifice in the struggle ... the great revolutionary end spurns those base means and ways which set one part of the working class against other parts, or attempt to make the masses happy without their participation; or lower the faith of the masses in themselves and their organization, replacing it by worship for the "leaders"		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Permissible and obligatory are those and only those means which unite the revolutionary proletariat, fill their hearts with irreconcilable hostility to oppression, teach them contempt for official morality and its democratic echoers, imbue them with consciousness of their own historic mission, raise their courage and spirit of self-sacrifice in the struggle ... the great revolutionary end spurns those base means and ways which set one part of the working class against other parts, or attempt to make the masses happy without their participation; or lower the faith of the masses in themselves and their organization, replacing it by worship for the "leaders"

	~~{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Show not the goal but show also the path (Lassalle)~~

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Intentions alone cannot make you Progressive or Reactionary

2026-08-20T07:43:14Z

Intentions alone cannot make you Progressive or Reactionary

Show changes

Reversedragon: copy markup from Q19,04

2026-08-20T01:02:30Z

copy markup from Q19,04

New page

{{NextNineThousand|PPPA=Their morals and ours|E=Q19,04|User=RD|Contents=y}}
== Main entry ==
{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">

{{li|start=y|I=Z1/IV|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{article|Their Morals and Ours}} (Trotsky 1938) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/morals/morals.htm]

</li></ol>
== Motifs or claims ==

== Related ==


== Ideologies or fields ==
<ol class="hue clean terse {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">
{{li|start=y
|I=Z1/IV |Q=41,04|Q2=4104}}{{TTS|IV|Fourth}} / Trotskyism
{{li|I=Z1/ML |Q=40,01|Q2=4001}}{{TTS|ML|M-L}} / [[EC:9k/RD/Q4000|Stalinism]] (Soviet Union)
{{li|I=Z1/ML |Q=41,03|Q2=4103}}{{TTS|ML|M-L}} / Stalin's Marxism (2020s)
</li></ol>


== Subpages or related scraps ==



[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]]

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:55, 20 August 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Tribal populations (?) will recognize and appreciate the power of workers to stop the exploiters -> I don't know who the Kaffirs are.		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Tribal populations (?) will recognize and appreciate the power of workers to stop the exploiters -> I don't know who the Kaffirs are.

	{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Intentions alone cannot make you Progressive or Reactionary / The ends are not accessible without control over the effects of the means -> there are a lot more small fragments of meta-Marxism in Trotsky than I realized		{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Intentions alone cannot make you Progressive or Reactionary / The ends are not accessible without control over the effects of the means / Show not the goal but show also the path (Lassalle) -> there are a lot more small fragments of meta-Marxism in Trotsky than I realized

	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Deceive unions when necessary / "Maneuvers and subterfuge" are in this case only methods of valid self-defense against a perfidious reformist bureaucracy (trade union bureaucracy; Soviet bureaucracy) (Lenin, Trotsky) -> he specifically refers to the trade union bureaucracy here but the context makes it amply obvious he does mean either one		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Deceive unions when necessary / "Maneuvers and subterfuge" are in this case only methods of valid self-defense against a perfidious reformist bureaucracy (trade union bureaucracy; Soviet bureaucracy) (Lenin, Trotsky) -> he specifically refers to the trade union bureaucracy here but the context makes it amply obvious he does mean either one
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Permissible and obligatory are those and only those means which unite the revolutionary proletariat, fill their hearts with irreconcilable hostility to oppression, teach them contempt for official morality and its democratic echoers, imbue them with consciousness of their own historic mission, raise their courage and spirit of self-sacrifice in the struggle ... the great revolutionary end spurns those base means and ways which set one part of the working class against other parts, or attempt to make the masses happy without their participation; or lower the faith of the masses in themselves and their organization, replacing it by worship for the "leaders"		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Permissible and obligatory are those and only those means which unite the revolutionary proletariat, fill their hearts with irreconcilable hostility to oppression, teach them contempt for official morality and its democratic echoers, imbue them with consciousness of their own historic mission, raise their courage and spirit of self-sacrifice in the struggle ... the great revolutionary end spurns those base means and ways which set one part of the working class against other parts, or attempt to make the masses happy without their participation; or lower the faith of the masses in themselves and their organization, replacing it by worship for the "leaders"

	~~{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Show not the goal but show also the path (Lassalle)~~

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:39, 6 September 2026
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{article\|Their Morals and Ours}} (Trotsky 1938) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/morals/morals.htm]		{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{article\|Their Morals and Ours}} (Trotsky 1938) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/morals/morals.htm]

			{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=44,36\|Q2=4436}}Laws don't apply to "Lev Sedov" / Soviet laws exclude Trotsky / ({{9k\|RD/Q44,36}})

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}From the point of view of "eternal truths" revolution is of course "anti-moral", but this merely means that idealist morality is counter-revolutionary		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}From the point of view of "eternal truths" revolution is of course "anti-moral", but this merely means that idealist morality is counter-revolutionary

	{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}The very conception of truth and lie was born of social contradictions -> yeah this is it, this is closer than Rorty got by saying truth values are arbitrary math constructs. society dividing into groups of people including physical tribes, factions, clusters of businesses, and finally class populations are the real roots of the entire discussion about truth versus lies in the age of capitalism		{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}The material resolves the immaterial / The very conception of truth and lie was born of social contradictions -> yeah this is it, this is closer than Rorty got by saying truth values are arbitrary math constructs. society dividing into groups of people including physical tribes, factions, clusters of businesses, and finally class populations are the real roots of the entire discussion about truth versus lies in the age of capitalism

	{{li\|I=S1/IV\|tradition=\|Q=658\|Q2=658}}Communist trolley problem / If the revolution had displayed less superfluous generosity from the very beginning, hundreds of thousands of lives would have been saved		{{li\|I=S1/IV\|tradition=\|Q=658\|Q2=658}}Communist trolley problem / If the revolution had displayed less superfluous generosity from the very beginning, hundreds of thousands of lives would have been saved
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	{{li\|I=S1/MX/ES\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}thanks, Rothenberg / you just became Rothenberg / ({{9k\|RD/Q19,80}})		{{li\|I=S1/MX/ES\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}thanks, Rothenberg / you just became Rothenberg / ({{9k\|RD/Q19,80}})

	{{li\|I=S1/ES\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}an ignorant peasant will consider both belligerent camps with equal hatred ~~/ neither Washington nor Moscow~~ (~~Tony Cliff~~)		{{li\|I=S1/ES\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}neither Washington nor Moscow (Tony Cliff) / an ignorant peasant will consider both belligerent camps with equal hatred (Trotsky)

	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX onto ES\|Q=44,91\|Q2=4491\|h4 = Faulty progressivisms produce irony }} / Every incorrect progressive theory produces irony		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX onto ES\|Q=44,91\|Q2=4491\|h4= Faulty progressivisms produce irony }} / Every incorrect progressive theory produces irony

	{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|tradition=MX, IV, IV onto DX, IV onto LR\|Q=41,83\|Q2=4183}}Marxist errors invite capitalism / When Marxism falters, capitalists return / A bad Marxist party will ultimately do almost everything a Liberal-republican party does, including running an entire national government around capitalism		{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|tradition=MX, IV, IV onto DX, IV onto LR\|Q=41,83\|Q2=4183}}Marxist errors invite capitalism / When Marxism falters, capitalists return / A bad Marxist party will ultimately do almost everything a Liberal-republican party does, including running an entire national government around capitalism
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	{{li\|I=Z1/ML \|Q=40,01\|Q2=4001}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / [[EC:9k/RD/Q4000\|Stalinism]] (Soviet Union)		{{li\|I=Z1/ML \|Q=40,01\|Q2=4001}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / [[EC:9k/RD/Q4000\|Stalinism]] (Soviet Union)
	{{li\|I=Z1/ML \|Q=41,03\|Q2=4103}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / Stalin's Marxism (2020s)		{{li\|I=Z1/ML \|Q=41,03\|Q2=4103}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / Stalin's Marxism (2020s)
			{{li\|I=S1/HAS\|Q=660\|Q2=660}}{{TTS\|HAS\|Hass}} / [[EC:9k/RD/Q660\|morality or ethics]]
	{{li\|I=S1/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|HAS\|Hass}} / Christian morality		{{li\|I=S1/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|HAS\|Hass}} / Christian morality
	{{li\|I=S1/Aa \|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|Aa\|A.A.}} / Lacanian psychoanalysis		{{li\|I=S1/Aa \|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|Aa\|A.A.}} / Lacanian psychoanalysis