Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q4,1,1,1 - Revision history

Reversedragon: The SWP broke from the ICFI in 1963

2026-09-26T02:15:59Z

The SWP broke from the ICFI in 1963

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:15, 26 September 2026
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	{{li\|I=M3/MX\|tradition=MX, IV\|Q=31,60\|Q2=3160}}At what moment does Communism "stop working"? -> Trotskyists have the most interesting answer to this. it looks vaguely like this page and determining the moment orange parties devolve into blue parties.		{{li\|I=M3/MX\|tradition=MX, IV\|Q=31,60\|Q2=3160}}At what moment does Communism "stop working"? -> Trotskyists have the most interesting answer to this. it looks vaguely like this page and determining the moment orange parties devolve into blue parties.

			{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}The SWP broke from the ICFI in 1963 / The Socialist Workers' Party (United States) broke from the ICFI (Fourth International of 1953) in 1963 [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/08/14/mumi-a14.html]

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: an ideal chance to advance themselves

2026-08-29T04:31:18Z

an ideal chance to advance themselves

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:31, 29 August 2026
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	{{li\|I=S1/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}your "open workers' party" is a masquerade / Your "legal association", as well as the "open workers’ party" of the liquidators, is nothing but ... a masquerade, for actually you are counting on the Social-Democrats [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1911/apr/29.htm] -> I feel like this one needs to be hurled at at least a few apparently-Trotskyist parties. they don't necessarily hide behind concepts of 'universal rights' where surely an identity group of workers will be protected, but you do see them synergize with center-Liberal "labor" parties in various ways, where you could argue they're somewhat unintentionally standing behind the Labor party as a shield.		{{li\|I=S1/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}your "open workers' party" is a masquerade / Your "legal association", as well as the "open workers’ party" of the liquidators, is nothing but ... a masquerade, for actually you are counting on the Social-Democrats [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1911/apr/29.htm] -> I feel like this one needs to be hurled at at least a few apparently-Trotskyist parties. they don't necessarily hide behind concepts of 'universal rights' where surely an identity group of workers will be protected, but you do see them synergize with center-Liberal "labor" parties in various ways, where you could argue they're somewhat unintentionally standing behind the Labor party as a shield.

			{{li\|I=S1/ES\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}an ideal chance to advance themselves / this association [the new underground Socialist league] presented an ideal opportunity for them to advance themselves (Marx 1847) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad2.htm] -> well isn't that familiar. it sounds like every other 'error' recorded by Trotskyism when somebody starts becoming an obstacle to the Fourth International, whether it's Alan Woods doing nothing in particular to help permanent revolution or whether it's all the bureaucrats standing behind Stalin.<br/>
			Marx admits the new unnamed league was like, [[E:class composition of Western Marxism\|blueberry]] already, and explains how all the shortcuts weren't exactly worth it.

	{{li\|I=M3/MX\|tradition=MX, IV\|Q=31,60\|Q2=3160}}At what moment does Communism "stop working"? -> Trotskyists have the most interesting answer to this. it looks vaguely like this page and determining the moment orange parties devolve into blue parties.		{{li\|I=M3/MX\|tradition=MX, IV\|Q=31,60\|Q2=3160}}At what moment does Communism "stop working"? -> Trotskyists have the most interesting answer to this. it looks vaguely like this page and determining the moment orange parties devolve into blue parties.

Reversedragon: At what moment does Communism "stop working"?

2026-08-23T23:42:49Z

At what moment does Communism "stop working"?

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:42, 23 August 2026
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	{{li\|I=S1/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}your "open workers' party" is a masquerade / Your "legal association", as well as the "open workers’ party" of the liquidators, is nothing but ... a masquerade, for actually you are counting on the Social-Democrats [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1911/apr/29.htm] -> I feel like this one needs to be hurled at at least a few apparently-Trotskyist parties. they don't necessarily hide behind concepts of 'universal rights' where surely an identity group of workers will be protected, but you do see them synergize with center-Liberal "labor" parties in various ways, where you could argue they're somewhat unintentionally standing behind the Labor party as a shield.		{{li\|I=S1/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}your "open workers' party" is a masquerade / Your "legal association", as well as the "open workers’ party" of the liquidators, is nothing but ... a masquerade, for actually you are counting on the Social-Democrats [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1911/apr/29.htm] -> I feel like this one needs to be hurled at at least a few apparently-Trotskyist parties. they don't necessarily hide behind concepts of 'universal rights' where surely an identity group of workers will be protected, but you do see them synergize with center-Liberal "labor" parties in various ways, where you could argue they're somewhat unintentionally standing behind the Labor party as a shield.

			{{li\|I=M3/MX\|tradition=MX, IV\|Q=31,60\|Q2=3160}}At what moment does Communism "stop working"? -> Trotskyists have the most interesting answer to this. it looks vaguely like this page and determining the moment orange parties devolve into blue parties.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: your "open workers' party" is a masquerade

2026-08-21T03:13:31Z

your "open workers' party" is a masquerade

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:13, 21 August 2026
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/ML\|Q=618}}Hugo Chavez is an opportunist (Communist Party of Venezuela) [https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5640/] -> both the PCV and the Trotskyists make interesting points and I really don't know who's right		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/ML\|Q=618}}Hugo Chavez is an opportunist (Communist Party of Venezuela) [https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5640/] -> both the PCV and the Trotskyists make interesting points and I really don't know who's right

	~~</li><~~li ~~class~~=~~"field_exstruct" data-~~tradition="ES onto Zv, PT onto Zv~~" value~~="618~~" data-dimension~~=~~"S">~~class traitor from Trotskyism -> the motif of generally bourgeois/[[E:Careerist layer (meta-Marxism)\|Careerist]] people who drop out of Trotskyism and almost inevitably turn blue or brown.<br />		{{li\|I=S1/LR\|tradition=ES onto Zv, PT onto Zv\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}class traitor from Trotskyism -> the motif of generally bourgeois/[[E:Careerist layer (meta-Marxism)\|Careerist]] people who drop out of Trotskyism and almost inevitably turn blue or brown.<br />
	the big question is, why do they do this. what new structure are they being put into and what is appealing to them about the new structure? and I would hazard a guess the new structure is "one big disorganized Filament of socially-linked Friends pouring across multiple countries with Pete standing behind it with a wad of money". that's it. friendship is lethal. 'the tangle' looks more like popular descriptions of Trotskyism than anything Trotskyist theorists have been able to create themselves, so they get sucked into it like a vortex. and then they all have to accept that Pete's life matters to events on earth but none of the million Friends Linked Together he supports actually matter, doesn't matter if they're dead as long as another group of socially-linked friends dies and Pete's group wins.<br />		the big question is, why do they do this. what new structure are they being put into and what is appealing to them about the new structure? and I would hazard a guess the new structure is "one big disorganized Filament of socially-linked Friends pouring across multiple countries with Pete standing behind it with a wad of money". that's it. friendship is lethal. 'the tangle' looks more like popular descriptions of Trotskyism than anything Trotskyist theorists have been able to create themselves, so they get sucked into it like a vortex. and then they all have to accept that Pete's life matters to events on earth but none of the million Friends Linked Together he supports actually matter, doesn't matter if they're dead as long as another group of socially-linked friends dies and Pete's group wins.<br />
	George Orwell - case of - class traitor from Trotskyism		George Orwell - case of - class traitor from Trotskyism

			{{li\|I=S1/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}your "open workers' party" is a masquerade / Your "legal association", as well as the "open workers’ party" of the liquidators, is nothing but ... a masquerade, for actually you are counting on the Social-Democrats [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1911/apr/29.htm] -> I feel like this one needs to be hurled at at least a few apparently-Trotskyist parties. they don't necessarily hide behind concepts of 'universal rights' where surely an identity group of workers will be protected, but you do see them synergize with center-Liberal "labor" parties in various ways, where you could argue they're somewhat unintentionally standing behind the Labor party as a shield.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: link: Workers' International League failing to join Fourth International

2026-06-28T12:34:46Z

link: Workers' International League failing to join Fourth International

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:34, 28 June 2026
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	{{li\|I=Z1/DX\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Organization 3.2.4 — Communist Party of Cuba		{{li\|I=Z1/DX\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Organization 3.2.4 — Communist Party of Cuba

	{{li\|I=Z1/LR\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Organization 3.3.?? — Workers' International League -> singled out by Trotsky as nationally-focused, but in practice worse than Dengist parties, so I made it blue. the WIL devolved into an entryist party with no strategy against bourgeois leaders, and then merged with Pabloism to become the USFI.<br/>		{{li\|I=Z1/LR\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Organization 3.3.?? — Workers' International League -> singled out by Trotsky as nationally-focused, but in practice worse than Dengist parties, so I made it blue. [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2024/12/27/ofjx-d27.html] the WIL devolved into an entryist party with no strategy against bourgeois leaders, and then merged with Pabloism to become the USFI.<br/>
	I'm not sure if this should be under "Second Internationals" or not.		I'm not sure if this should be under "Second Internationals" or not.

Reversedragon: class traitor from Trotskyism

2026-06-28T07:13:39Z

class traitor from Trotskyism

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:13, 28 June 2026
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	{{li\|I=Z1/ES\|Q=618 \|Q2=618 }}International 4.2.1.1 / International Socialist Tendency (IST; 1977) / International Socialist Organization (generic; name of sections) -> this one was a little hard to place but I'm trying to place it next to the Militant Tendency pre- forming the CWI according to its ideology and its position as a second right opposition to the RCP.		{{li\|I=Z1/ES\|Q=618 \|Q2=618 }}International 4.2.1.1 / International Socialist Tendency (IST; 1977) / International Socialist Organization (generic; name of sections) -> this one was a little hard to place but I'm trying to place it next to the Militant Tendency pre- forming the CWI according to its ideology and its position as a second right opposition to the RCP.

	{{li\|I=Z1/DX\|Q=~~618~~ \|Q2=~~618~~ }}International 4.2.2 / Committee for a Workers' International (CWI) -> after largely screwing things up, Ted Grant finally figures out that he shouldn't work with Pabloism and founds an organization that is marginally better than his previous ones but still questionable.		{{li\|I=Z1/DX\|Q=46,09\|Q2=4609}}International 4.2.2 / Committee for a Workers' International (CWI) -> after largely screwing things up, Ted Grant finally figures out that he shouldn't work with Pabloism and founds an organization that is marginally better than his previous ones but still questionable.

	{{li\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=618 \|Q2=618 }}International 4.2.2.1 / International Marxist Tendency (IMT) ; Revolutionary Communist International (RCI) -> this organization is one big contradiction because I had been listening to their talks and what they say is completely different from what Ted Grant apparently did. because of that ambiguity I tentatively mark them orange.		{{li\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=618 \|Q2=618 }}International 4.2.2.1 / International Marxist Tendency (IMT) ; Revolutionary Communist International (RCI) -> this organization is one big contradiction because I had been listening to their talks and what they say is completely different from what Ted Grant apparently did. because of that ambiguity I tentatively mark them orange.
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/ML\|Q=618}}Hugo Chavez is an opportunist (Communist Party of Venezuela) [https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5640/] -> both the PCV and the Trotskyists make interesting points and I really don't know who's right		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/ML\|Q=618}}Hugo Chavez is an opportunist (Communist Party of Venezuela) [https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5640/] -> both the PCV and the Trotskyists make interesting points and I really don't know who's right

	{{li\|I=Z1/IV\|~~Q=46~~,~~09\|Q2=4609}}Committee for~~ a ~~Workers~~' ~~International (defunct)~~ / ~~CWI (attempted International)~~		</li><li class="field_exstruct" data-tradition="ES onto Zv, PT onto Zv" value="618" data-dimension="S">class traitor from Trotskyism -> the motif of generally bourgeois/[[E:Careerist layer (meta-Marxism)\|Careerist]] people who drop out of Trotskyism and almost inevitably turn blue or brown.<br />
			the big question is, why do they do this. what new structure are they being put into and what is appealing to them about the new structure? and I would hazard a guess the new structure is "one big disorganized Filament of socially-linked Friends pouring across multiple countries with Pete standing behind it with a wad of money". that's it. friendship is lethal. 'the tangle' looks more like popular descriptions of Trotskyism than anything Trotskyist theorists have been able to create themselves, so they get sucked into it like a vortex. and then they all have to accept that Pete's life matters to events on earth but none of the million Friends Linked Together he supports actually matter, doesn't matter if they're dead as long as another group of socially-linked friends dies and Pete's group wins.<br />
			George Orwell - case of - class traitor from Trotskyism

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Reversedragon moved page Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q4111 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q4,1,1,1: Entity number or thesis portal structure was not final

2026-06-28T05:59:07Z

Reversedragon moved page Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q4111 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q4,1,1,1: Entity number or thesis portal structure was not final

← Older revision	Revision as of 05:59, 28 June 2026
(No difference)

Reversedragon: add IMT & ISO ; sorted by theoretical quality - sort by date later

2026-06-28T05:18:06Z

add IMT & ISO ; sorted by theoretical quality - sort by date later

Show changes

Reversedragon: Fourth International

2026-06-28T02:04:27Z

Fourth International

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:04, 28 June 2026
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	== Fourth internationals ==		== Fourth internationals ==
	~~<!--~~ <ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">
	</li></ol> -->
			</li><li class="field_trotsky" value="4638" data-dimension="Z">International 4.0 / [[E:Q4601\|Fourth International]] (1938) -> became: Q46,01 International Secretariat, Q46,02 International Committee

			</li><li class="field_trotsky" value="4602" data-dimension="Z">International 4.1 / International Committee (1953) / ICFI (attempted International)

			</li><li class="field_trotsky" value="4601" data-dimension="Z">International 4.2 / International Secretariat (1953) / ISFI (attempted International)

			</li></ol>

	== Related ==		== Related ==
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/ML\|Q=618}}Hugo Chavez is an opportunist (Communist Party of Venezuela) [https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5640/] -> both the PCV and the Trotskyists make interesting points and I really don't know who's right		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/ML\|Q=618}}Hugo Chavez is an opportunist (Communist Party of Venezuela) [https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5640/] -> both the PCV and the Trotskyists make interesting points and I really don't know who's right

			</li><li class="field_trotsky" value="4609" data-dimension="Z">Committee for a Workers' International (defunct) / CWI (attempted International)

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Hugo Chavez is an opportunist

2026-05-24T21:00:11Z

Hugo Chavez is an opportunist

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:00, 24 May 2026
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	== Related ==		== Related ==
	~~<!--~~
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">
	</li></ol~~> --~~>
			{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/ML\|Q=618}}Hugo Chavez is an opportunist (Communist Party of Venezuela) [https://venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/5640/] -> both the PCV and the Trotskyists make interesting points and I really don't know who's right

			</li></ol>

	<!--		<!--

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:31, 29 August 2026
Line 97:		Line 97:

	{{li\|I=S1/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}your "open workers' party" is a masquerade / Your "legal association", as well as the "open workers’ party" of the liquidators, is nothing but ... a masquerade, for actually you are counting on the Social-Democrats [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1911/apr/29.htm] -> I feel like this one needs to be hurled at at least a few apparently-Trotskyist parties. they don't necessarily hide behind concepts of 'universal rights' where surely an identity group of workers will be protected, but you do see them synergize with center-Liberal "labor" parties in various ways, where you could argue they're somewhat unintentionally standing behind the Labor party as a shield.		{{li\|I=S1/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}your "open workers' party" is a masquerade / Your "legal association", as well as the "open workers’ party" of the liquidators, is nothing but ... a masquerade, for actually you are counting on the Social-Democrats [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1911/apr/29.htm] -> I feel like this one needs to be hurled at at least a few apparently-Trotskyist parties. they don't necessarily hide behind concepts of 'universal rights' where surely an identity group of workers will be protected, but you do see them synergize with center-Liberal "labor" parties in various ways, where you could argue they're somewhat unintentionally standing behind the Labor party as a shield.

			{{li\|I=S1/ES\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}an ideal chance to advance themselves / this association [the new underground Socialist league] presented an ideal opportunity for them to advance themselves (Marx 1847) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad2.htm] -> well isn't that familiar. it sounds like every other 'error' recorded by Trotskyism when somebody starts becoming an obstacle to the Fourth International, whether it's Alan Woods doing nothing in particular to help permanent revolution or whether it's all the bureaucrats standing behind Stalin.<br/>
			Marx admits the new unnamed league was like, [[E:class composition of Western Marxism\|blueberry]] already, and explains how all the shortcuts weren't exactly worth it.

	{{li\|I=M3/MX\|tradition=MX, IV\|Q=31,60\|Q2=3160}}At what moment does Communism "stop working"? -> Trotskyists have the most interesting answer to this. it looks vaguely like this page and determining the moment orange parties devolve into blue parties.		{{li\|I=M3/MX\|tradition=MX, IV\|Q=31,60\|Q2=3160}}At what moment does Communism "stop working"? -> Trotskyists have the most interesting answer to this. it looks vaguely like this page and determining the moment orange parties devolve into blue parties.