Reversedragon: Reversedragon moved page Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q4110 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q41,10: Moving numbered Item to TTS-pronounceable title

2026-06-25T07:07:58Z

Reversedragon moved page Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q4110 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q41,10: Moving numbered Item to TTS-pronounceable title

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Reversedragon: Bordigism is red

2026-06-25T07:07:36Z

Bordigism is red

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:07, 25 June 2026
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	== Main entry ==		== Main entry ==
	{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean field_ML">		{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean field_ML">
	~~<!-- {{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,10\|Q2=4110\|h4= Bordigism }} -->~~

	</li~~><li class~~=~~"field_trotsky" data-qid~~="41,10~~" value~~="4110~~" data-dimension="Z">~~Bordigism (named Marxism) / Bordiga and ICP's Marxism -> this is not affiliated with Trotskyism as far as I know right now. it has the swatch because from the little I've heard about it, I half remember somebody accusing it of being sectarian. still learning about it, so the swatch may change later		{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,10\|Q2=4110}}Bordigism (named Marxism) / Bordiga and ICP's Marxism -> this is not affiliated with Trotskyism as far as I know right now. it has the swatch because from the little I've heard about it, I half remember somebody accusing it of being sectarian. still learning about it, so the swatch may change later

			{{li\|I=Z1/ML\|Q=41,10\|Q2=4110\|h4= Bordigism }} -> I finally got a summary of this that wasn't totally incomprehensible. it said that Bordigism was an almost chauvinist [[E:All political factions are ideologies\|ideology]] that completely rejected the use of existing social structures and movements, and thought people would just kind of spontaneously step out of capitalism and form a Marxist republic. interesting idea, way too hypothetical for the serious situation it emerged in, rightly shut down by Lenin. what really stuck out to me in the summary though is that Trotskyists said that a Bordigist model is basically constructed as a crimson Marxism that thinks it is complete with a complete description of how socialism starts, and yet it forms as separate nation-states linked into a Communist international. not only should that be a bit logically contradictory — if socialism is that easy to describe, then it tends to describe civilizations so similar they could merge into a single political entity, and if Bordigism is all molecularized and all about this anarchic process of separate things coming together (see below) you'd think that would extend upward — but Bordigism is the kind of ideology that can be communicated entirely in the bounds of slightly modified formal logic with few problems, so unlike with most Marxisms, Bordigism being logically contradictory is actually a pretty big problem. so, as weird as it is, one of the best short descriptions of Bordigism might actually be "deviation from Trotskyism". not because I'm claiming Trotskyism is correct but simply because the internal logic of Bordigism genuinely suggests it should produce a Fourth International and then it doesn't, like it's avoiding its own conclusions. and if a Marxism really looks like Trotskyism but fails to be it according to Trotskyism's somewhat strict criteria, then it's red.

			{{li\|I=S1/MD\|Q=41,10\|Q2=4110}}Bordigism -> thinking about my 4.3 drafts... god I may have believed in "Bordigism without the prohibition on using existing movements". what I was writing back then sounded kind of like Bordigism but with all the bullshit removed. this idea that Marxism forms at these spontaneous loci and that you can sort of know the content of a Marxist movement and its socialism in advance and as long as you guessed it correctly you can just apply the transitions from one semi-static historical period to another semi-static historical period. I didn't believe that Marxism was 'closed' or you didn't have to improve it. I didn't talk about cybernetics or 'organisms'. I didn't put down Trotskyism. it was just this idea that scattered islands of theorists connect together by acting on the gaps between them and form an international structure of some kind. which, like... god, it's funny how actually understanding Materialism can improve almost any version of Marxism, and not understanding Materialism can destroy any version of Marxism. it's hypothetically possible I had the best version of Bordigism only because all the others were worse. but the day I learned that transitions between static historical periods were only really an approximation and history itself is this complicated dance of people acting on knowledge to physically form into new events that then update their knowledge further while it also happens as [[EC:9k/RD/Q66\|many timelines running into each other in a circle]], I knew things were a lot more complex than Bordigism wanted to make them, which turned me against early pre-1960s Trotskyism and Bordigism at the same time. anyway, if my 4.3 drafts really did match Bordigism, then Bordigism could be vermilion, because the fine-grained swatch assigned to {{book\|MDem}} drafts pre version 5.3 according to their surrounding historical context is vermilion. meta-Marxism proper is violet, but "molecular Marxism" seeing itself as an infra-Marxism rather than a meta-Marxism is vermilion.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

	== Related ==		== Related ==
	~~<!--~~		<ol class="hue clean field_ML">
	<ol class="hue clean ~~field_exstruct~~">
	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MX\|~~tradition~~=\|Q=618}}		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MX/ML\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= Bordigism is red }} / Distorted Trotskyisms are red / Any Marxism that highly resembles Trotskyism but fails to meet Trotskyism's own criteria for being Trotskyism is the same swatch color as Stalin's Marxism, and thus is the crimson swatch; these include being rejected from Trotskyism for socialism in one country, being rejected from Trotskyism for calling the national bourgeoisie a [[E:dictatorship-of-the-proletariat\|dictatorship of the "proletariat"]], etc. / ({{9k\|RD/Q12,9,92}})
	</li></ol~~> --~~>
			</li></ol>

	== Ideologies or fields ==		== Ideologies or fields ==
	<ol class="hue clean ~~field_exstruct~~">		<ol class="hue clean field_ML">
	{{li\|start=y		{{li\|start=y
	\|I=S1/ML\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / Marxism		\|I=Z1/ML\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / Marxism
			{{li\|I=Z1/ML\|Q=41,10\|Q2=4110}}{{TTS\|ML\|M-L}} / Bordigism
			{{li\|I=S1/MD\|Q=19,92\|Q2=1992}}{{TTS\|MD\|MDem}} / vermilion Marxism
			{{li\|I=S1/IV\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|IV\|Fourth}} onto {{TTS\|IV\|Fourth}} / identifying criteria for Trotskyism
	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
	<!--		<!--

Reversedragon: copy markup from Q41,10

2026-06-24T06:22:17Z

copy markup from Q41,10

New page

{{NextNineThousand|PPPA=Bordigism|User=RD|E=Q41,10|Contents=y}}
== Main entry ==
{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean field_ML">


</li><li class="field_trotsky" data-qid="41,10" value="4110" data-dimension="Z">Bordigism (named Marxism) / Bordiga and ICP's Marxism -> this is not affiliated with Trotskyism as far as I know right now. it has the swatch because from the little I've heard about it, I half remember somebody accusing it of being sectarian. still learning about it, so the swatch may change later

</li></ol>

== Related ==


== Ideologies or fields ==
<ol class="hue clean field_exstruct">
{{li|start=y
|I=S1/ML|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|ML|M-L}} / Marxism
</li></ol>


[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]]

Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q41,10 - Revision history

Reversedragon: Reversedragon moved page Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q4110 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q41,10: Moving numbered Item to TTS-pronounceable title

Reversedragon: Bordigism is red

Reversedragon: copy markup from Q41,10