Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q41,91 - Revision history

Reversedragon: A world in which Trotsky can exist without destroying Leninism is a better world

2026-05-24T21:11:11Z

A world in which Trotsky can exist without destroying Leninism is a better world

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:11, 24 May 2026
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	== Trotskyist angle ==		== Trotskyist angle ==
	<ol class="hue clean terse">		<ol class="hue clean terse field_ML">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104\|h4 = [[E:Trotskyism\|Trotskyism]] }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q41,04\|9k]])		{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104\|h4 = [[E:Trotskyism\|Trotskyism]] }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q41,04\|9k]])
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (Trotskyism, meta-Marxism) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html] -> I'd say this is stupid except... I think this is backhandedly true. I think it kind of {{em\|is}} technically true that if you compare Stalin and Trotsky you'll come out with a better perspective on what Marxism is; the only problem is that you'll come away realizing Stalin was much better than you'd thought. so, ok, this is one of those statements that's 'right, but at what cost?'.		{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (Trotskyism, meta-Marxism) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html] -> I'd say this is stupid except... I think this is backhandedly true. I think it kind of {{em\|is}} technically true that if you compare Stalin and Trotsky you'll come out with a better perspective on what Marxism is; the only problem is that you'll come away realizing Stalin was much better than you'd thought. so, ok, this is one of those statements that's 'right, but at what cost?'.

			{{li\|I=S2/MX/MD\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011}}A world in which Trotsky can exist without destroying Leninism is a better world -> although I believe nearly every single proposition in ethics is bogus with very few exceptions, this is one of the few ethical principles I still believe.<br/>
			it's actually shocking how far this one can get you though. like, it rules out every bourgeois philosophy trying to represent itself as good, because none of them truly support or protect Trotskyists. but it also doesn't say that siding with Trotskyism to destroy "Stalinist" parties is good because if Trotsky destroys his own party through incompetence, then {{em\|Trotsky still destroyed Leninism}}. so you very specifically need a party that Trotsky can't destroy because it is "Trotsky-proof". it can't shove Trotsky out of the overall party-nation but its core methods have to be good enough that he can't disintegrate it. which is a series of requirements that at this time is bound to make just about everybody a little mad, but I genuinely can't see how you could choose otherwise because I can't see how you could defend splitting Marxism in two to either fight off all the Trotskyists for Stalin or fight off all the "Stalinists" for Trotsky. that just seems medieval and like the exact kind of thing Marxism has been trying to end.<br/>
			If Trotsky is Good, become a Trotskyist + existential materialism = this.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: When people regress back to old Menshevik models, it was because the endorsement of Stalin made them

2026-04-26T07:54:44Z

When people regress back to old Menshevik models, it was because the endorsement of Stalin made them

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:54, 26 April 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (ICFI) / To overlook the work of Trotsky is to flatten and misrepresent Marxism (ICFI) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html]		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (ICFI) / To overlook the work of Trotsky is to flatten and misrepresent Marxism (ICFI) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html]

			{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618}}When people regress back to old Menshevik models, it was because the endorsement of Stalin {{em\|made them}} [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html] -> and that was because in the material world Stalin successfully defended his country from foreign empires while the primary thing foreign empires want is to slurp up as much of other countries as possible — while other stationary empires have empires as friends and don't want to upset their friends. so, this is technically true, but it's not the full story.<br/>
			gosh this is exactly the kind of Trotskyist I was subtly making fun of in my video. {{YouTube\|UqGs7JcWAjs}} the Trotskyist that thinks that Stalin's publicity problem is an actual serious problem with Marxism. to be fair it's not as bad when they try to genuinely claim there were theoretical problems in Stalin and Trotsky somehow upheld a more robust theory, like this. Trotskyism is kind of hilarious from any angle but I definitely like it better when it isn't trying to make all its arguments using Stalin and actually claims to have theoretical models.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin - violet swatch

2026-04-26T04:32:51Z

Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin - violet swatch

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:32, 26 April 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011}}Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed -> appears in: {{book\|Animal Farm}}.		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011}}Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed -> appears in: {{book\|Animal Farm}}.

	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (ICFI) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html] -> I'd say this is stupid except... I think this is backhandedly true. I think it kind of {{em\|is}} technically true that if you compare Stalin and Trotsky you'll come out with a better perspective on what Marxism is; the only problem is that you'll come away realizing Stalin was much better than you'd thought. so, ok, this is one of those statements that's 'right, but at what cost?'.		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (ICFI) / To overlook the work of Trotsky is to flatten and misrepresent Marxism (ICFI) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html]

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	{{li\|I=S1/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV, MX onto A\|Q=40,14\|Q2=4014\|h4 = Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q33,17\|9k]]) -> the usually-nonfictional motif of someone being able to realize, assuming they're smart, that various people are forming into a countable culture and fighting for their rights against the rest of society legitimately and perhaps effectively, but utterly not being able to fit into that countable culture as a culture and remaining a cultural "foreigner" to countable civil rights movements that they never actually want inside them. you can see this with the Trotskyite conspiracy, which did it with very little wisdom or awareness, and separately with the way modern Trotskyism reacted to BLM / 1619 Project — although they were marginally smarter in that case. though it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it happens, this is a really big problem for progressive theories and movements in general. it has the potential to kill schizoanalysis through the failure of different sorted cultures to "properly" act as a [[E:anarchy (meta-Marxism)\|freeform, uncountable unity of opposites]] that [[E:Rhizome (schizoanalysis)\|inherently wants to go together]], but it can even kill particular Marxisms, as historically it arguably did. any movement or party or cluster of people-groups hit with Trotsky syndrome sees that it can't possibly control the people who don't fit into it and its days are numbered.		{{li\|I=S1/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV, MX onto A\|Q=40,14\|Q2=4014\|h4 = Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q33,17\|9k]]) -> the usually-nonfictional motif of someone being able to realize, assuming they're smart, that various people are forming into a countable culture and fighting for their rights against the rest of society legitimately and perhaps effectively, but utterly not being able to fit into that countable culture as a culture and remaining a cultural "foreigner" to countable civil rights movements that they never actually want inside them. you can see this with the Trotskyite conspiracy, which did it with very little wisdom or awareness, and separately with the way modern Trotskyism reacted to BLM / 1619 Project — although they were marginally smarter in that case. though it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it happens, this is a really big problem for progressive theories and movements in general. it has the potential to kill schizoanalysis through the failure of different sorted cultures to "properly" act as a [[E:anarchy (meta-Marxism)\|freeform, uncountable unity of opposites]] that [[E:Rhizome (schizoanalysis)\|inherently wants to go together]], but it can even kill particular Marxisms, as historically it arguably did. any movement or party or cluster of people-groups hit with Trotsky syndrome sees that it can't possibly control the people who don't fit into it and its days are numbered.

			{{li\|I=S2/IV/MX\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (Trotskyism, meta-Marxism) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html] -> I'd say this is stupid except... I think this is backhandedly true. I think it kind of {{em\|is}} technically true that if you compare Stalin and Trotsky you'll come out with a better perspective on what Marxism is; the only problem is that you'll come away realizing Stalin was much better than you'd thought. so, ok, this is one of those statements that's 'right, but at what cost?'.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin

2026-04-26T03:48:37Z

Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:48, 26 April 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011}}Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed -> appears in: {{book\|Animal Farm}}.		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011}}Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed -> appears in: {{book\|Animal Farm}}.

	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (ICFI) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html]		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (ICFI) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html] -> I'd say this is stupid except... I think this is backhandedly true. I think it kind of {{em\|is}} technically true that if you compare Stalin and Trotsky you'll come out with a better perspective on what Marxism is; the only problem is that you'll come away realizing Stalin was much better than you'd thought. so, ok, this is one of those statements that's 'right, but at what cost?'.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV\|Q=29,84\|Q2=2984\|h4 = In the First World Trotsky is sacred }} / Most people in First-World countries consider "Stalinism" to be a real prejudice and anti-Trotskyism to be a real oppression / If you want to work with "The US Left" it is a "reality" that Stalin and the Soviet Union are a danger and your enemy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV\|Q=29,84\|Q2=2984\|h4 = In the First World Trotsky is sacred }} / Most people in First-World countries consider "Stalinism" to be a real prejudice and anti-Trotskyism to be a real oppression / If you want to work with "The US Left" it is a "reality" that Stalin and the Soviet Union are a danger and your enemy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])

	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX, MX onto Zv, MX onto IV\|Q=40,09\|Q2=4009}}A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all -> a statement which is bold but as far as I can tell completely justified. mainstream Marxism-Leninism can't actually explain the series of events which would prevent Trotsky going to the external empires and betraying the Soviet population. early Maoism was actually closer to being able to solve this problem, even though there are still problems of people leaving countries and becoming their enemies, all of them smaller in scope than the Trotskyite conspiracy.		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX, MX onto Zv, MX onto IV\|Q=40,09\|Q2=4009}}A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all -> a statement which is bold but as far as I can tell completely justified. mainstream Marxism-Leninism can't actually explain the series of events which would prevent Trotsky going to the external empires and betraying the Soviet population. early Maoism was actually closer to being able to solve this problem, even though today there are still problems of people leaving countries and becoming their enemies, all of them smaller in scope than the Trotskyite conspiracy.

	{{li\|I=S1/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV, MX onto A\|Q=40,14\|Q2=4014\|h4 = Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q33,17\|9k]]) -> the usually-nonfictional motif of someone being able to realize, assuming they're smart, that various people are forming into a countable culture and fighting for their rights against the rest of society legitimately and perhaps effectively, but utterly not being able to fit into that countable culture as a culture and remaining a cultural "foreigner" to countable civil rights movements that they never actually want inside them. you can see this with the Trotskyite conspiracy, which did it with very little wisdom or awareness, and separately with the way modern Trotskyism reacted to BLM / 1619 Project — although they were marginally smarter in that case. though it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it happens, this is a really big problem for progressive theories and movements in general. it has the potential to kill schizoanalysis through the failure of different sorted cultures to "properly" act as a [[E:anarchy (meta-Marxism)\|freeform, uncountable unity of opposites]] that [[E:Rhizome (schizoanalysis)\|inherently wants to go together]], but it can even kill particular Marxisms, as historically it arguably did. any movement or party or cluster of people-groups hit with Trotsky syndrome sees that it can't possibly control the people who don't fit into it and its days are numbered.		{{li\|I=S1/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV, MX onto A\|Q=40,14\|Q2=4014\|h4 = Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q33,17\|9k]]) -> the usually-nonfictional motif of someone being able to realize, assuming they're smart, that various people are forming into a countable culture and fighting for their rights against the rest of society legitimately and perhaps effectively, but utterly not being able to fit into that countable culture as a culture and remaining a cultural "foreigner" to countable civil rights movements that they never actually want inside them. you can see this with the Trotskyite conspiracy, which did it with very little wisdom or awareness, and separately with the way modern Trotskyism reacted to BLM / 1619 Project — although they were marginally smarter in that case. though it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it happens, this is a really big problem for progressive theories and movements in general. it has the potential to kill schizoanalysis through the failure of different sorted cultures to "properly" act as a [[E:anarchy (meta-Marxism)\|freeform, uncountable unity of opposites]] that [[E:Rhizome (schizoanalysis)\|inherently wants to go together]], but it can even kill particular Marxisms, as historically it arguably did. any movement or party or cluster of people-groups hit with Trotsky syndrome sees that it can't possibly control the people who don't fit into it and its days are numbered.

ICFIReporters: If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism

2026-04-26T03:46:56Z

If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:46, 26 April 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011\|h4 = Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed }} / If Bolshevism fails to take the educated individuals who are dedicated supporters throughout a revolution and integrate them into society such that they will not starve and can use their talents to improve society then Bolshevism has failed -> sub-case of: [[E:I'm not anticommunist but\|I'm not anticommunist but]]. this is about the only anticommunist argument I have ever found convincing. every anticommunist argument that wasn't Trotsky was totally confusing to me and just left me digging deeper and deeper until I saw how false every one of them was. but this is the only one that's sort of held up as I got more and more information. and it's haunted me ever since. it's easy to blame Trotsky and say he made the wrong choices. but like, what happens if he obeys? if the country is actually failing at things and every time he tries to get into a position the should theoretically be worthy of the experts just kick him out until he's standing next to the handful of peasants still starving, isn't there actually some point where he has a right to complain? that has never sat right with me. the notion that even when you build Bolshevism it could have a fraying edge where people are still shunted into a world of individualism with no support, and perhaps treated really badly for just failing to spontaneously be unbelievably excellent at things, tossed quotes about revisionism because their actual skills are not perfect. it feels like there are natural points where people simply aren't materially part of the material object called society and it makes them angry because in a world where everything is claimed by a group of human beings they don't want to be treated as not human beings.		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011\|h4 = Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed }} / If Bolshevism fails to take the educated individuals who are dedicated supporters throughout a revolution and integrate them into society such that they will not starve and can use their talents to improve society then Bolshevism has failed -> sub-case of: [[E:I'm not anticommunist but\|I'm not anticommunist but]]. this is about the only anticommunist argument I have ever found convincing. every anticommunist argument that wasn't Trotsky was totally confusing to me and just left me digging deeper and deeper until I saw how false every one of them was. but this is the only one that's sort of held up as I got more and more information. and it's haunted me ever since. it's easy to blame Trotsky and say he made the wrong choices. but like, what happens if he obeys? if the country is actually failing at things and every time he tries to get into a position the should theoretically be worthy of the experts just kick him out until he's standing next to the handful of peasants still starving, isn't there actually some point where he has a right to complain? that has never sat right with me. the notion that even when you build Bolshevism it could have a fraying edge where people are still shunted into a world of individualism with no support, and perhaps treated really badly for just failing to spontaneously be unbelievably excellent at things, tossed quotes about revisionism because their actual skills are not perfect. it feels like there are natural points where people simply aren't materially part of the material object called society and it makes them angry because in a world where everything is claimed by a group of human beings they don't want to be treated as not human beings.
	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011}}Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed -> appears in: {{book\|Animal Farm}}.		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011}}Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed -> appears in: {{book\|Animal Farm}}.

			{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (ICFI) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html]

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures

2026-04-13T20:01:53Z

Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:01, 13 April 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX, MX onto Zv, MX onto IV\|Q=40,09\|Q2=4009}}A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all -> a statement which is bold but as far as I can tell completely justified. mainstream Marxism-Leninism can't actually explain the series of events which would prevent Trotsky going to the external empires and betraying the Soviet population. early Maoism was actually closer to being able to solve this problem, even though there are still problems of people leaving countries and becoming their enemies, all of them smaller in scope than the Trotskyite conspiracy.		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX, MX onto Zv, MX onto IV\|Q=40,09\|Q2=4009}}A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all -> a statement which is bold but as far as I can tell completely justified. mainstream Marxism-Leninism can't actually explain the series of events which would prevent Trotsky going to the external empires and betraying the Soviet population. early Maoism was actually closer to being able to solve this problem, even though there are still problems of people leaving countries and becoming their enemies, all of them smaller in scope than the Trotskyite conspiracy.

	{{li\|I=S1/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV, MX onto A\|Q=40,14\|Q2=4014\|h4 = Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures }} -> the usually-nonfictional motif of someone being able to realize, assuming they're smart, that various people are forming into a countable culture and fighting for their rights against the rest of society legitimately and perhaps effectively, but utterly not being able to fit into that countable culture as a culture and remaining a cultural "foreigner" to countable civil rights movements that they never actually want inside them. you can see this with the Trotskyite conspiracy, which did it with very little wisdom or awareness, and separately with the way modern Trotskyism reacted to BLM / 1619 Project — although they were marginally smarter in that case. though it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it happens, this is a really big problem for progressive theories and movements in general. it has the potential to kill schizoanalysis through the failure of different sorted cultures to "properly" act as a [[E:anarchy (meta-Marxism)\|freeform, uncountable unity of opposites]] that [[E:Rhizome (schizoanalysis)\|inherently wants to go together]], but it can even kill particular Marxisms, as historically it arguably did. any movement or party or cluster of people-groups hit with Trotsky syndrome sees that it can't possibly control the people who don't fit into it and its days are numbered.		{{li\|I=S1/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV, MX onto A\|Q=40,14\|Q2=4014\|h4 = Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q33,17\|9k]]) -> the usually-nonfictional motif of someone being able to realize, assuming they're smart, that various people are forming into a countable culture and fighting for their rights against the rest of society legitimately and perhaps effectively, but utterly not being able to fit into that countable culture as a culture and remaining a cultural "foreigner" to countable civil rights movements that they never actually want inside them. you can see this with the Trotskyite conspiracy, which did it with very little wisdom or awareness, and separately with the way modern Trotskyism reacted to BLM / 1619 Project — although they were marginally smarter in that case. though it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it happens, this is a really big problem for progressive theories and movements in general. it has the potential to kill schizoanalysis through the failure of different sorted cultures to "properly" act as a [[E:anarchy (meta-Marxism)\|freeform, uncountable unity of opposites]] that [[E:Rhizome (schizoanalysis)\|inherently wants to go together]], but it can even kill particular Marxisms, as historically it arguably did. any movement or party or cluster of people-groups hit with Trotsky syndrome sees that it can't possibly control the people who don't fit into it and its days are numbered.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures / redirects

2026-04-13T19:15:19Z

Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures / redirects

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:15, 13 April 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011\|h4 = Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed }} / If Bolshevism fails to take the educated individuals who are dedicated supporters throughout a revolution and integrate them into society such that they will not starve and can use their talents to improve society then Bolshevism has failed -> sub-case of: [[E:I'm not anticommunist but\|I'm not anticommunist but]]. this is about the only anticommunist argument I have ever found convincing. every anticommunist argument that wasn't Trotsky was totally confusing to me and just left me digging deeper and deeper until I saw how false every one of them was. but this is the only one that's sort of held up as I got more and more information. and it's haunted me ever since. it's easy to blame Trotsky and say he made the wrong choices. but like, what happens if he obeys? if the country is actually failing at things and every time he tries to get into a position the should theoretically be worthy of the experts just kick him out until he's standing next to the handful of peasants still starving, isn't there actually some point where he has a right to complain? that has never sat right with me. the notion that even when you build Bolshevism it could have a fraying edge where people are still shunted into a world of individualism with no support, and perhaps treated really badly for just failing to spontaneously be unbelievably excellent at things, tossed quotes about revisionism because their actual skills are not perfect. it feels like there are natural points where people simply aren't materially part of the material object called society and it makes them angry because in a world where everything is claimed by a group of human beings they don't want to be treated as not human beings.		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011\|h4 = Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed }} / If Bolshevism fails to take the educated individuals who are dedicated supporters throughout a revolution and integrate them into society such that they will not starve and can use their talents to improve society then Bolshevism has failed -> sub-case of: [[E:I'm not anticommunist but\|I'm not anticommunist but]]. this is about the only anticommunist argument I have ever found convincing. every anticommunist argument that wasn't Trotsky was totally confusing to me and just left me digging deeper and deeper until I saw how false every one of them was. but this is the only one that's sort of held up as I got more and more information. and it's haunted me ever since. it's easy to blame Trotsky and say he made the wrong choices. but like, what happens if he obeys? if the country is actually failing at things and every time he tries to get into a position the should theoretically be worthy of the experts just kick him out until he's standing next to the handful of peasants still starving, isn't there actually some point where he has a right to complain? that has never sat right with me. the notion that even when you build Bolshevism it could have a fraying edge where people are still shunted into a world of individualism with no support, and perhaps treated really badly for just failing to spontaneously be unbelievably excellent at things, tossed quotes about revisionism because their actual skills are not perfect. it feels like there are natural points where people simply aren't materially part of the material object called society and it makes them angry because in a world where everything is claimed by a group of human beings they don't want to be treated as not human beings.
			{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011}}Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed -> appears in: {{book\|Animal Farm}}.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	<ol class="hue clean terse">		<ol class="hue clean terse">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=MX onto IV\|Q=29,84\|Q2=~~29,84~~\|h4 = In the First World Trotsky is sacred }} / Most people in First-World countries consider "Stalinism" to be a real prejudice and anti-Trotskyism to be a real oppression / If you want to work with "The US Left" it is a "reality" that Stalin and the Soviet Union are a danger and your enemy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV\|Q=29,84\|Q2=2984\|h4 = In the First World Trotsky is sacred }} / Most people in First-World countries consider "Stalinism" to be a real prejudice and anti-Trotskyism to be a real oppression / If you want to work with "The US Left" it is a "reality" that Stalin and the Soviet Union are a danger and your enemy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])

	</li~~><li class~~=~~"field_trotsky" data-~~tradition="MX, MX onto Zv, MX onto IV~~" data-qid~~="40,09~~" value~~="4009~~" data-dimension="S2">~~A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all -> a statement which is bold but as far as I can tell completely justified. mainstream Marxism-Leninism can't actually explain the series of events which would prevent Trotsky going to the external empires and betraying the Soviet population. early Maoism was actually closer to being able to solve this problem, even though there are still problems of people leaving countries and becoming their enemies, all of them smaller in scope than the Trotskyite conspiracy.		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX, MX onto Zv, MX onto IV\|Q=40,09\|Q2=4009}}A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all -> a statement which is bold but as far as I can tell completely justified. mainstream Marxism-Leninism can't actually explain the series of events which would prevent Trotsky going to the external empires and betraying the Soviet population. early Maoism was actually closer to being able to solve this problem, even though there are still problems of people leaving countries and becoming their enemies, all of them smaller in scope than the Trotskyite conspiracy.

			{{li\|I=S1/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV, MX onto A\|Q=40,14\|Q2=4014\|h4 = Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures }} -> the usually-nonfictional motif of someone being able to realize, assuming they're smart, that various people are forming into a countable culture and fighting for their rights against the rest of society legitimately and perhaps effectively, but utterly not being able to fit into that countable culture as a culture and remaining a cultural "foreigner" to countable civil rights movements that they never actually want inside them. you can see this with the Trotskyite conspiracy, which did it with very little wisdom or awareness, and separately with the way modern Trotskyism reacted to BLM / 1619 Project — although they were marginally smarter in that case. though it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it happens, this is a really big problem for progressive theories and movements in general. it has the potential to kill schizoanalysis through the failure of different sorted cultures to "properly" act as a [[E:anarchy (meta-Marxism)\|freeform, uncountable unity of opposites]] that [[E:Rhizome (schizoanalysis)\|inherently wants to go together]], but it can even kill particular Marxisms, as historically it arguably did. any movement or party or cluster of people-groups hit with Trotsky syndrome sees that it can't possibly control the people who don't fit into it and its days are numbered.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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Reversedragon: Reversedragon moved page User:RD/9k/Q41,91 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q41,91: Moving 9k pages to Ontology talk for search purposes

2026-04-13T19:03:30Z

Reversedragon moved page User:RD/9k/Q41,91 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q41,91: Moving 9k pages to Ontology talk for search purposes

← Older revision	Revision as of 19:03, 13 April 2026
(No difference)

Reversedragon: A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all

2026-04-13T19:02:37Z

A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:02, 13 April 2026
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	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
	== ~~Related~~ ==
			== Liberal-republican angle ==
			<!--
			<ol class="hue clean terse">
			</li></ol>
			-->

			== Trotskyist angle ==
			<ol class="hue clean terse">

			{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104\|h4 = [[E:Trotskyism\|Trotskyism]] }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q41,04\|9k]])

			{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011\|h4 = Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed }} / If Bolshevism fails to take the educated individuals who are dedicated supporters throughout a revolution and integrate them into society such that they will not starve and can use their talents to improve society then Bolshevism has failed -> sub-case of: [[E:I'm not anticommunist but\|I'm not anticommunist but]]. this is about the only anticommunist argument I have ever found convincing. every anticommunist argument that wasn't Trotsky was totally confusing to me and just left me digging deeper and deeper until I saw how false every one of them was. but this is the only one that's sort of held up as I got more and more information. and it's haunted me ever since. it's easy to blame Trotsky and say he made the wrong choices. but like, what happens if he obeys? if the country is actually failing at things and every time he tries to get into a position the should theoretically be worthy of the experts just kick him out until he's standing next to the handful of peasants still starving, isn't there actually some point where he has a right to complain? that has never sat right with me. the notion that even when you build Bolshevism it could have a fraying edge where people are still shunted into a world of individualism with no support, and perhaps treated really badly for just failing to spontaneously be unbelievably excellent at things, tossed quotes about revisionism because their actual skills are not perfect. it feels like there are natural points where people simply aren't materially part of the material object called society and it makes them angry because in a world where everything is claimed by a group of human beings they don't want to be treated as not human beings.

			</li></ol>

			== Meta-Marxist angle ==
	<ol class="hue clean terse">		<ol class="hue clean terse">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=MX onto IV\|Q=29,84\|Q2=29,84\|h4 = In the First World Trotsky is sacred }} / Most people in First-World countries consider "Stalinism" to be a real prejudice and anti-Trotskyism to be a real oppression / If you want to work with "The US Left" it is a "reality" that Stalin and the Soviet Union are a danger and your enemy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=MX onto IV\|Q=29,84\|Q2=29,84\|h4 = In the First World Trotsky is sacred }} / Most people in First-World countries consider "Stalinism" to be a real prejudice and anti-Trotskyism to be a real oppression / If you want to work with "The US Left" it is a "reality" that Stalin and the Soviet Union are a danger and your enemy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])

	{{li\|I=~~Z1/~~IV\|Q=41,~~04\|Q2~~=~~4104\|h4~~ = ~~[[E:Trotskyism\|Trotskyism]] }}~~ / ~~([[EC:9k~~/~~RD/Q41,04\|9k]])~~		</li><li class="field_trotsky" data-tradition="MX, MX onto Zv, MX onto IV" data-qid="40,09" value="4009" data-dimension="S2">A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all -> a statement which is bold but as far as I can tell completely justified. mainstream Marxism-Leninism can't actually explain the series of events which would prevent Trotsky going to the external empires and betraying the Soviet population. early Maoism was actually closer to being able to solve this problem, even though there are still problems of people leaving countries and becoming their enemies, all of them smaller in scope than the Trotskyite conspiracy.

			</li></ol>

			== Related ==
			<ol class="hue clean terse">
	</li></ol><!--		</li></ol><!--

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	</ol>		</ol>

			* MX onto Zv

	<!--== Full title for bookmarks (optional) ==		<!--== Full title for bookmarks (optional) ==

Reversedragon: sacred

2026-03-30T09:56:32Z

sacred

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:56, 30 March 2026
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	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
	== Related ==		== Related ==
	~~<!--~~
	<ol class="hue clean terse">		<ol class="hue clean terse">
	</li></ol~~>--~~><!--
			{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=MX onto IV\|Q=29,84\|Q2=29,84\|h4 = In the First World Trotsky is sacred }} / Most people in First-World countries consider "Stalinism" to be a real prejudice and anti-Trotskyism to be a real oppression / If you want to work with "The US Left" it is a "reality" that Stalin and the Soviet Union are a danger and your enemy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])

			{{li\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104\|h4 = [[E:Trotskyism\|Trotskyism]] }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q41,04\|9k]])

			</li></ol><!--

	== Wavebuilder combinations ==		== Wavebuilder combinations ==

← Older revision		Revision as of 03:48, 26 April 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011}}Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed -> appears in: {{book\|Animal Farm}}.		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=40,11\|Q2=4011}}Abandon Trotsky, and Bolshevism has failed -> appears in: {{book\|Animal Farm}}.

	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (ICFI) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html]		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618}}Read Trotsky before bashing Stalin / If you haven't read Trotsky you can't hold up Stalin's work as the specimen that disproves Marxism (ICFI) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/04/01/habe-a01.html] -> I'd say this is stupid except... I think this is backhandedly true. I think it kind of {{em\|is}} technically true that if you compare Stalin and Trotsky you'll come out with a better perspective on what Marxism is; the only problem is that you'll come away realizing Stalin was much better than you'd thought. so, ok, this is one of those statements that's 'right, but at what cost?'.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV\|Q=29,84\|Q2=2984\|h4 = In the First World Trotsky is sacred }} / Most people in First-World countries consider "Stalinism" to be a real prejudice and anti-Trotskyism to be a real oppression / If you want to work with "The US Left" it is a "reality" that Stalin and the Soviet Union are a danger and your enemy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV\|Q=29,84\|Q2=2984\|h4 = In the First World Trotsky is sacred }} / Most people in First-World countries consider "Stalinism" to be a real prejudice and anti-Trotskyism to be a real oppression / If you want to work with "The US Left" it is a "reality" that Stalin and the Soviet Union are a danger and your enemy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])

	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX, MX onto Zv, MX onto IV\|Q=40,09\|Q2=4009}}A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all -> a statement which is bold but as far as I can tell completely justified. mainstream Marxism-Leninism can't actually explain the series of events which would prevent Trotsky going to the external empires and betraying the Soviet population. early Maoism was actually closer to being able to solve this problem, even though there are still problems of people leaving countries and becoming their enemies, all of them smaller in scope than the Trotskyite conspiracy.		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=MX, MX onto Zv, MX onto IV\|Q=40,09\|Q2=4009}}A theory of society which cannot explain the Trotskyite conspiracy is no theory of society at all -> a statement which is bold but as far as I can tell completely justified. mainstream Marxism-Leninism can't actually explain the series of events which would prevent Trotsky going to the external empires and betraying the Soviet population. early Maoism was actually closer to being able to solve this problem, even though today there are still problems of people leaving countries and becoming their enemies, all of them smaller in scope than the Trotskyite conspiracy.

	{{li\|I=S1/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV, MX onto A\|Q=40,14\|Q2=4014\|h4 = Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q33,17\|9k]]) -> the usually-nonfictional motif of someone being able to realize, assuming they're smart, that various people are forming into a countable culture and fighting for their rights against the rest of society legitimately and perhaps effectively, but utterly not being able to fit into that countable culture as a culture and remaining a cultural "foreigner" to countable civil rights movements that they never actually want inside them. you can see this with the Trotskyite conspiracy, which did it with very little wisdom or awareness, and separately with the way modern Trotskyism reacted to BLM / 1619 Project — although they were marginally smarter in that case. though it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it happens, this is a really big problem for progressive theories and movements in general. it has the potential to kill schizoanalysis through the failure of different sorted cultures to "properly" act as a [[E:anarchy (meta-Marxism)\|freeform, uncountable unity of opposites]] that [[E:Rhizome (schizoanalysis)\|inherently wants to go together]], but it can even kill particular Marxisms, as historically it arguably did. any movement or party or cluster of people-groups hit with Trotsky syndrome sees that it can't possibly control the people who don't fit into it and its days are numbered.		{{li\|I=S1/MX\|tradition=MX onto IV, MX onto A\|Q=40,14\|Q2=4014\|h4 = Trotsky syndrome of countable cultures }} / ([[EC:9k/RD/Q33,17\|9k]]) -> the usually-nonfictional motif of someone being able to realize, assuming they're smart, that various people are forming into a countable culture and fighting for their rights against the rest of society legitimately and perhaps effectively, but utterly not being able to fit into that countable culture as a culture and remaining a cultural "foreigner" to countable civil rights movements that they never actually want inside them. you can see this with the Trotskyite conspiracy, which did it with very little wisdom or awareness, and separately with the way modern Trotskyism reacted to BLM / 1619 Project — although they were marginally smarter in that case. though it's hard to pinpoint exactly why it happens, this is a really big problem for progressive theories and movements in general. it has the potential to kill schizoanalysis through the failure of different sorted cultures to "properly" act as a [[E:anarchy (meta-Marxism)\|freeform, uncountable unity of opposites]] that [[E:Rhizome (schizoanalysis)\|inherently wants to go together]], but it can even kill particular Marxisms, as historically it arguably did. any movement or party or cluster of people-groups hit with Trotsky syndrome sees that it can't possibly control the people who don't fit into it and its days are numbered.