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	<updated>2026-08-13T13:29:26Z</updated>
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		<id>https://research.moraleconomy.au/index.php?title=Ontology_talk:9k/RD/Q4291&amp;diff=45064&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>Reversedragon: Surely Marx imagined determinism</title>
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		<updated>2026-08-13T08:55:57Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;Surely Marx imagined determinism&lt;/p&gt;
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				&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;← Older revision&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; style=&quot;background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;&quot;&gt;Revision as of 08:55, 13 August 2026&lt;/td&gt;
				&lt;/tr&gt;&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot; id=&quot;mw-diff-left-l3&quot;&gt;Line 3:&lt;/td&gt;
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&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{HueCSS}}&amp;lt;ol class=&amp;quot;hue clean  {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;!-- inactive:  {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ES}} --&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{HueCSS}}&amp;lt;ol class=&amp;quot;hue clean  {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;!-- inactive:  {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ES}} --&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;−&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{li|start=y|I=S2/LR|tradition=|Q=42,91|Q2=4291|h4&lt;del style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;-rem&lt;/del&gt;=}}Surely Marx &lt;del style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;imagined &lt;/del&gt;determinism &amp;lt;!-- / ({{9k|RD/Q18,78}}) --&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{li|start=y|I=S2/LR|tradition=|Q=42,91|Q2=4291|h4= &lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;Surely Marx imagined determinism &lt;/ins&gt;}} &lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;/ &lt;/ins&gt;Surely&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;, &lt;/ins&gt;Marx&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;&#039;s &lt;/ins&gt;determinism &lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;(dialectical materialism; existential materialism; upreductionism; narrative prediction) was an unacceptable assumption / This determination to have the complete, closed story, or model, the final word, is something I cannot forgive Marx for; it proved responsible for a great deal of error and, more significantly, authoritarianism (Yanis Varoufakis)  &lt;/ins&gt;&amp;lt;!-- / ({{9k|RD/Q18,78}}) --&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt; &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;{{li|I=S2/MX|tradition=|Q=42,91|Q2=4291}}Surely Marx imagined determinism  -&amp;gt;  thanks Rothenberg. {{censor|fucking}} thanks.&amp;lt;br/&amp;gt;&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;again though, you know what postmodernism means? it means you cannot say the USSR {{em|or}} Stalin were wrong! they&#039;re just as correct as you are. if you try to impose your own narrative on them you&#039;re flattening reality because you won&#039;t see the whole picture.&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt; &lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;{{li|I=S1/MX|tradition=|Q=42,91|Q2=4291}}... it proved responsible for a great deal of error and, more significantly, authoritarianism (Yanis Varoufakis)  -&amp;gt;  what things qualify as authoritarianism in this context? no, really, stop and think about it. this isn&#039;t a straightforward question. people can just decide {{em|anything}} is authoritarianism, including Reconstruction after the United States Civil War, or separation of church and state. neither of those are jokes, I&#039;ve seen people actually get mad at those things and think they were destroying the country and becoming an existential threat. so what is and isn&#039;t authoritarianism?? I swear that question is a litmus test for exactly what political party you actually represent and also proves that human history really is driven by narratives, because center-Liberalism and Toryism are both narratives and they don&#039;t simply go away, or even start cooperating with each other instead of killing each other, just because you don&#039;t believe in narratives.&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;lt;/li&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/ol&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;lt;/li&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/ol&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot; id=&quot;mw-diff-left-l22&quot;&gt;Line 22:&lt;/td&gt;
&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-lineno&quot;&gt;Line 27:&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{li|start=y&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{li|start=y&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;     |I=Z1/LR|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|LR|L-R}} / Liberal-republicanism&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;     |I=Z1/LR|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|LR|L-R}} / Liberal-republicanism&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;{{li|I=S1/MX|Q=92 |Q2=92 }}{{TTS|MX|M.X.}} / meta-Marxism&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td colspan=&quot;2&quot; class=&quot;diff-side-deleted&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot; data-marker=&quot;+&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&lt;ins style=&quot;font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;&quot;&gt;{{li|I=S1/MX|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|MX|meta-Marxism}} / meta-ontology&lt;/ins&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;lt;/li&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/ol&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;div&gt;&amp;lt;/li&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/ol&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;tr&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td class=&quot;diff-marker&quot;&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;td style=&quot;background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;&quot;&gt;&lt;br&gt;&lt;/td&gt;&lt;/tr&gt;
&lt;/table&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Reversedragon</name></author>
	</entry>
	<entry>
		<id>https://research.moraleconomy.au/index.php?title=Ontology_talk:9k/RD/Q4291&amp;diff=45063&amp;oldid=prev</id>
		<title>Reversedragon: copy markup from Q18,78</title>
		<link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="https://research.moraleconomy.au/index.php?title=Ontology_talk:9k/RD/Q4291&amp;diff=45063&amp;oldid=prev"/>
		<updated>2026-08-13T08:44:50Z</updated>

		<summary type="html">&lt;p&gt;copy markup from &lt;a href=&quot;/index.php?title=Special:PermanentLink/45052&quot; title=&quot;Special:PermanentLink/45052&quot;&gt;Q18,78&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;b&gt;New page&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;div&gt;{{NextNineThousand|PPPA=Marx imagined determinism|User=RD|E=Q42,91|Contents=y}}&lt;br /&gt;
== Main entry ==&lt;br /&gt;
{{HueCSS}}&amp;lt;ol class=&amp;quot;hue clean  {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&amp;lt;!-- inactive:  {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ES}} --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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{{li|start=y|I=S2/LR|tradition=|Q=42,91|Q2=4291|h4-rem=}}Surely Marx imagined determinism &amp;lt;!-- / ({{9k|RD/Q18,78}}) --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;lt;/li&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/ol&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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== Related ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;!--&lt;br /&gt;
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&amp;lt;/li&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/ol&amp;gt; --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
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== Wavebuilder combinations ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;dl class=&amp;quot;wikitable hue data_wavebuild three&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{WaveBuild| -- | -- | -- }}&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/dl&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{E:Q618/ES|--}}&lt;br /&gt;
--&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
== {{int:hue-prototype-trads-or-fields/en}} ==&amp;lt;!--  en: Ideologies or fields --&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;ol class=&amp;quot;hue clean terse  {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}&amp;quot;&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
{{li|start=y&lt;br /&gt;
    |I=Z1/LR|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|LR|L-R}} / Liberal-republicanism&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;/li&amp;gt;&amp;lt;/ol&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;!--&lt;br /&gt;
== Subpages ==&lt;br /&gt;
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== Full title for bookmarks (optional) ==&lt;br /&gt;
&amp;lt;pre&amp;gt;[9k] asdfsdf - Q618 ; asdfsdf&amp;lt;/pre&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;br /&gt;
--&amp;gt;&lt;br /&gt;
[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]]  &amp;lt;!-- page ends here.  TTS-unfriendly numbers incoming&lt;br /&gt;
redirects or titles:   [[Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q4291]]&lt;br /&gt;
duplication hint:   copy markup from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNN|Q42,91]] --&amp;gt;&lt;/div&gt;</summary>
		<author><name>Reversedragon</name></author>
	</entry>
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