Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q43,92 - Revision history

Reversedragon: worldwide socialist transition

2026-09-08T22:47:33Z

worldwide socialist transition

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:47, 8 September 2026
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	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

	== ~~Ideologies~~ or ~~fields~~ ==		== {{int:hue-prototype-trads-fields-or-topics}} ==
	<ol class="hue clean terse {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">		<ol class="hue clean terse {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">
	{{li\|start=y		{{li\|start=y
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	{{li\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104}}{{TTS\|IV\|Fourth}} / Trotskyism		{{li\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104}}{{TTS\|IV\|Fourth}} / Trotskyism
	{{li\|I=S1/MX\|Q=44,44\|Q2=4444}}{{TTS\|MX\|meta-Marxism}} / Trotskyism as meta-Marxism		{{li\|I=S1/MX\|Q=44,44\|Q2=4444}}{{TTS\|MX\|meta-Marxism}} / Trotskyism as meta-Marxism
			{{li\|I=S1/IV\|Q=21,14\|Q2=2114}}{{TTS\|IV\|Trotskyism}} / worldwide socialist transition
	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
	<!--		<!--

Reversedragon: Lenin on bourgeois elections

2026-08-29T12:39:42Z

Lenin on bourgeois elections

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:39, 29 August 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= Set up November below February }} (Marx) / Set up November beneath February / Menace February with November / Set up the workers' government (November revolution; workers' revolution) alongside the newly created bourgeois government (February revolution; bourgeois revolution against feudal order) so the new bourgeois government is not allowed to betray the workers / Alongside the new official governments they must simultaneously establish their own revolutionary workers' governments ... so that the bourgeois-democratic governments not only immediately lose the support of the workers but find themselves from the very beginning supervised and threatened by authorities behind which stand the whole mass of the workers (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm]		{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= Set up November below February }} (Marx) / Set up November beneath February / Menace February with November / Set up the workers' government (November revolution; workers' revolution) alongside the newly created bourgeois government (February revolution; bourgeois revolution against feudal order) so the new bourgeois government is not allowed to betray the workers / Alongside the new official governments they must simultaneously establish their own revolutionary workers' governments ... so that the bourgeois-democratic governments not only immediately lose the support of the workers but find themselves from the very beginning supervised and threatened by authorities behind which stand the whole mass of the workers (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm]

	{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}The workers must put up their own candidates {{i\|to preserve their independence}} (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] -> I think the latter half of that sentence is the most important part, and it's absolutely not remembered by Western-Marxists who talk about voting. like, according to Marx, you literally don't stop on the project of runnning independent candidates until you get Bolsheviks into office, and if that sounds impossible, then you finally understand the point. half literally, [[E:Bolsheviks and Duma (1906-1907)\|Lenin for senator]]. they don't get it.<br/>		{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}The workers must put up their own candidates {{i\|to preserve their independence}} (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] [https://mltoday.com/from-the-classics-lenin-on-participation-in-bourgeois-elections/] -> I think the latter half of that sentence is the most important part, and it's absolutely not remembered by Western-Marxists who talk about voting. like, according to Marx, you literally don't stop on the project of runnning independent candidates until you get Bolsheviks into office, and if that sounds impossible, then you finally understand the point. half literally, [[E:Bolsheviks and Duma (1906-1907)\|Lenin for senator]]. they don't get it.<br/>
	okay, I looked it up and he said a lot about examining the actual situation and chances of success. [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1907/boycott/index.htm] but the concept is still in there, by the third Duma he was back at 'Set up November beneath February' and thought it was more beneficial to the overall revolution to demonstrate the power of the workers' government.		okay, I looked it up and he said a lot about examining the actual situation and chances of success. [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1907/boycott/index.htm] but the concept is still in there, by the third Duma he was back at 'Set up November beneath February' and thought it was more beneficial to the overall revolution to demonstrate the power of the workers' government.

Reversedragon: Drive all the propertied classes from their ruling positions, carry the revolution throughout the First World

2026-08-29T12:34:28Z

Drive all the propertied classes from their ruling positions, carry the revolution throughout the First World

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:34, 29 August 2026
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	<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">		<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= Set up November below February }} (Marx) / Set up November beneath February / Menace February with November / Set up the workers' government (November revolution; workers' revolution) alongside the newly created bourgeois government (February revolution; bourgeois revolution against feudal order) so the new bourgeois government is not allowed to betray the workers / Alongside the new official governments they must simultaneously establish their own revolutionary workers' governments ... so that the bourgeois-democratic governments not only immediately lose the support of the workers but find themselves from the very beginning supervised and threatened by authorities behind which stand the whole mass of the workers (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm]		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Don't let the petty bourgeoisie stop the revolution in the middle / Drive all the propertied classes from their ruling positions, carry the revolution throughout the First World until the decisive forces of production are secure / The further particular individuals or fractions of the petty bourgeoisie advance, the more of these demands they will explicitly adopt, and the few who recognize their own programme ... might well believe they have put forward the maximum that can be demanded from the revolution. ... While the democratic petty bourgeois want to bring the revolution to an end as quickly as possible, ... it is our interest and our task to make the revolution permanent until all the more or less propertied classes have been driven from their ruling positions, until the proletariat has conquered state power and ... has progressed sufficiently far — ... in all the leading countries of the world — that competition between the proletarians of these countries ceases and at least the decisive forces of production are concentrated in the hands of the workers. Our concern cannot simply be to modify private property, but to abolish it, not to hush up class antagonisms but to abolish classes (Marx, "Address of the Central Authority to the League") [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] [https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/russian-revolution-unfinished-twentieth-century/12.html]

			{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= Set up November below February }} (Marx) / Set up November beneath February / Menace February with November / Set up the workers' government (November revolution; workers' revolution) alongside the newly created bourgeois government (February revolution; bourgeois revolution against feudal order) so the new bourgeois government is not allowed to betray the workers / Alongside the new official governments they must simultaneously establish their own revolutionary workers' governments ... so that the bourgeois-democratic governments not only immediately lose the support of the workers but find themselves from the very beginning supervised and threatened by authorities behind which stand the whole mass of the workers (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm]

	{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}The workers must put up their own candidates {{i\|to preserve their independence}} (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] -> I think the latter half of that sentence is the most important part, and it's absolutely not remembered by Western-Marxists who talk about voting. like, according to Marx, you literally don't stop on the project of runnning independent candidates until you get Bolsheviks into office, and if that sounds impossible, then you finally understand the point. half literally, [[E:Bolsheviks and Duma (1906-1907)\|Lenin for senator]]. they don't get it.<br/>		{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}The workers must put up their own candidates {{i\|to preserve their independence}} (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] -> I think the latter half of that sentence is the most important part, and it's absolutely not remembered by Western-Marxists who talk about voting. like, according to Marx, you literally don't stop on the project of runnning independent candidates until you get Bolsheviks into office, and if that sounds impossible, then you finally understand the point. half literally, [[E:Bolsheviks and Duma (1906-1907)\|Lenin for senator]]. they don't get it.<br/>

Reversedragon: The workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence (Marx)

2026-08-29T10:44:57Z

The workers must put up their own candidates to preserve their independence (Marx)

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:44, 29 August 2026
Line 12:		Line 12:
	<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">		<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Set up November below February (Marx) / Set up November beneath February / Menace February with November / Set up the workers' government (November revolution; workers' revolution) alongside the newly created bourgeois government (February revolution; bourgeois revolution against feudal order) so the new bourgeois government is not allowed to betray the workers / Alongside the new official governments they must simultaneously establish their own revolutionary workers' governments ... so that the bourgeois-democratic governments not only immediately lose the support of the workers but find themselves from the very beginning supervised and threatened by authorities behind which stand the whole mass of the workers (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm]		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= Set up November below February }} (Marx) / Set up November beneath February / Menace February with November / Set up the workers' government (November revolution; workers' revolution) alongside the newly created bourgeois government (February revolution; bourgeois revolution against feudal order) so the new bourgeois government is not allowed to betray the workers / Alongside the new official governments they must simultaneously establish their own revolutionary workers' governments ... so that the bourgeois-democratic governments not only immediately lose the support of the workers but find themselves from the very beginning supervised and threatened by authorities behind which stand the whole mass of the workers (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm]

			{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}The workers must put up their own candidates {{i\|to preserve their independence}} (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] -> I think the latter half of that sentence is the most important part, and it's absolutely not remembered by Western-Marxists who talk about voting. like, according to Marx, you literally don't stop on the project of runnning independent candidates until you get Bolsheviks into office, and if that sounds impossible, then you finally understand the point. half literally, [[E:Bolsheviks and Duma (1906-1907)\|Lenin for senator]]. they don't get it.<br/>
			okay, I looked it up and he said a lot about examining the actual situation and chances of success. [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1907/boycott/index.htm] but the concept is still in there, by the third Duma he was back at 'Set up November beneath February' and thought it was more beneficial to the overall revolution to demonstrate the power of the workers' government.

	{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=18,46\|Q2=1846\|h4= France and Germany together }} (1847) / The workers' revolutions in France and Germany will not be independent, but will build off each other (Marx 1847) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] / Their battle-cry must be permanent revolution (Marx; generic) -><br/>		{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=18,46\|Q2=1846\|h4= France and Germany together }} (1847) / The workers' revolutions in France and Germany will not be independent, but will build off each other (Marx 1847) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] / Their battle-cry must be permanent revolution (Marx; generic) -><br/>
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	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Marx's strategy for transforming Germany sounded more like Trotskyism than it did like Deng Xiaoping Thought -> the first plank if you want to defeat "Marx believed in co-op theory" / "Marx believed in Menshevism". China and Vietnam are each going through slow transformations. Marx describes a quick and thorough process of removing all the upper classes and handing each property structure to the emerging workers' state instead of managing the same thing in any way it was before. [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] there's none of this "we have to compromise between the three classes of China / Korea" stuff where Mao accidentally (?) recreates the medieval estate system.		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Marx's strategy for transforming Germany sounded more like Trotskyism than it did like Deng Xiaoping Thought -> the first plank if you want to defeat "Marx believed in co-op theory" / "Marx believed in Menshevism". China and Vietnam are each going through slow transformations. Marx describes a quick and thorough process of removing all the upper classes and handing each property structure to the emerging workers' state instead of managing the same thing in any way it was before. [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] there's none of this "we have to compromise between the three classes of China / Korea" stuff where Mao accidentally (?) recreates the medieval estate system.

	{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Meet the liquidators with cannons (Marx) / Meet the petty bourgeoisie with cannons / [D]uring and immediately after the struggle the workers, as far as it is at all possible, must oppose bourgeois attempts at pacification and force the democrats to carry out their terroristic phrases. ... the immediate revolutionary excitement ... must be sustained as long as possible. Far from opposing the so-called excesses — instances of popular vengeance against hated individuals or against public buildings with which hateful memories are associated — the workers' party must not only tolerate these actions but must even give them direction. ... To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory ... the whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens' militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed -><br/>		{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= Meet the liquidators with cannons }} (Marx) / Meet the petty bourgeoisie with cannons / [D]uring and immediately after the struggle the workers, as far as it is at all possible, must oppose bourgeois attempts at pacification and force the democrats to carry out their terroristic phrases. ... the immediate revolutionary excitement ... must be sustained as long as possible. Far from opposing the so-called excesses — instances of popular vengeance against hated individuals or against public buildings with which hateful memories are associated — the workers' party must not only tolerate these actions but must even give them direction. ... To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory ... the whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens' militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed -><br/>
	well that's a surprisingly violent passage from Marx. to be fair though, he thought that some time between 1847 and 1861 there was going to very seriously be a Communist revolution across Europe. so it's not just phrases where he's valuing violence as some kind of abstract concept (a thing that Leninist theorists generally haven't done, but that Liberal-republicans constantly need clarification about), it was a prediction of what he thought would actually happen relatively soon.<br/>		well that's a surprisingly violent passage from Marx. to be fair though, he thought that some time between 1847 and 1861 there was going to very seriously be a Communist revolution across Europe. so it's not just phrases where he's valuing violence as some kind of abstract concept (a thing that Leninist theorists generally haven't done, but that Liberal-republicans constantly need clarification about), it was a prediction of what he thought would actually happen relatively soon.<br/>
	the takeaway: Marx was no fan of "[[E:ink brush Marxism (North Korea)\|ink brush socialism]]" where you try to justify three classes being equally valid. what he said was to the extent the older classes use their ability to call for peace to rule over everyone you simply have to suppress them beneath the workers' government, and all the workers oppose them with guns if it comes to that. you do have to give him credit for being so clear there; I feel like even Lenin wasn't always as clear as that. Trotsky on the other hand, I can see the resemblance.		the takeaway: Marx was no fan of "[[E:ink brush Marxism (North Korea)\|ink brush socialism]]" where you try to justify three classes being equally valid. what he said was to the extent the older classes use their ability to call for peace to rule over everyone you simply have to suppress them beneath the workers' government, and all the workers oppose them with guns if it comes to that. you do have to give him credit for being so clear there; I feel like even Lenin wasn't always as clear as that. Trotsky on the other hand, I can see the resemblance.

Reversedragon: Set up November beneath February (Marx)

2026-08-29T09:27:01Z

Set up November beneath February (Marx)

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:27, 29 August 2026
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	<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">		<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MN\|Q=18,46\|Q2=1846\|h4= France and Germany together }} (1847) / The workers' revolutions in France and Germany will not be independent, but will build off each other (Marx 1847) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] / Their battle-cry must be permanent revolution (Marx; generic) -><br/>		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Set up November below February (Marx) / Set up November beneath February / Menace February with November / Set up the workers' government (November revolution; workers' revolution) alongside the newly created bourgeois government (February revolution; bourgeois revolution against feudal order) so the new bourgeois government is not allowed to betray the workers / Alongside the new official governments they must simultaneously establish their own revolutionary workers' governments ... so that the bourgeois-democratic governments not only immediately lose the support of the workers but find themselves from the very beginning supervised and threatened by authorities behind which stand the whole mass of the workers (Marx) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm]

			{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=18,46\|Q2=1846\|h4= France and Germany together }} (1847) / The workers' revolutions in France and Germany will not be independent, but will build off each other (Marx 1847) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] / Their battle-cry must be permanent revolution (Marx; generic) -><br/>
	it didn't really go that way, did it? it was more like, Eastern Europe and Germany together behind the Soviet Union, with both of them coming out as flawed messes in different ways.		it didn't really go that way, did it? it was more like, Eastern Europe and Germany together behind the Soviet Union, with both of them coming out as flawed messes in different ways.

	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=~~18,46~~\|Q2=~~1846~~}}Marx's strategy for transforming Germany sounded more like Trotskyism than it did like Deng Xiaoping Thought -> the first plank if you want to defeat "Marx believed in co-op theory" / "Marx believed in Menshevism". China and Vietnam are each going through slow transformations. Marx describes a quick and thorough process of removing all the upper classes and handing each property structure to the emerging workers' state instead of managing the same thing in any way it was before. [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] there's none of this "we have to compromise between the three classes of China / Korea" stuff where Mao accidentally (?) recreates the medieval estate system.		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Marx's strategy for transforming Germany sounded more like Trotskyism than it did like Deng Xiaoping Thought -> the first plank if you want to defeat "Marx believed in co-op theory" / "Marx believed in Menshevism". China and Vietnam are each going through slow transformations. Marx describes a quick and thorough process of removing all the upper classes and handing each property structure to the emerging workers' state instead of managing the same thing in any way it was before. [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] there's none of this "we have to compromise between the three classes of China / Korea" stuff where Mao accidentally (?) recreates the medieval estate system.

	{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Meet the liquidators with cannons (Marx) / Meet the petty bourgeoisie with cannons / [D]uring and immediately after the struggle the workers, as far as it is at all possible, must oppose bourgeois attempts at pacification and force the democrats to carry out their terroristic phrases. ... the immediate revolutionary excitement ... must be sustained as long as possible. Far from opposing the so-called excesses — instances of popular vengeance against hated individuals or against public buildings with which hateful memories are associated — the workers' party must not only tolerate these actions but must even give them direction. ... To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory ... the whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens' militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed -><br/>		{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Meet the liquidators with cannons (Marx) / Meet the petty bourgeoisie with cannons / [D]uring and immediately after the struggle the workers, as far as it is at all possible, must oppose bourgeois attempts at pacification and force the democrats to carry out their terroristic phrases. ... the immediate revolutionary excitement ... must be sustained as long as possible. Far from opposing the so-called excesses — instances of popular vengeance against hated individuals or against public buildings with which hateful memories are associated — the workers' party must not only tolerate these actions but must even give them direction. ... To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory ... the whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens' militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed -><br/>

Reversedragon: Meet the petty bourgeoisie with cannons (Marx)

2026-08-29T09:21:41Z

Meet the petty bourgeoisie with cannons (Marx)

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:21, 29 August 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=18,46\|Q2=1846}}Marx's strategy for transforming Germany sounded more like Trotskyism than it did like Deng Xiaoping Thought -> the first plank if you want to defeat "Marx believed in co-op theory" / "Marx believed in Menshevism". China and Vietnam are each going through slow transformations. Marx describes a quick and thorough process of removing all the upper classes and handing each property structure to the emerging workers' state instead of managing the same thing in any way it was before. [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] there's none of this "we have to compromise between the three classes of China / Korea" stuff where Mao accidentally (?) recreates the medieval estate system.		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=18,46\|Q2=1846}}Marx's strategy for transforming Germany sounded more like Trotskyism than it did like Deng Xiaoping Thought -> the first plank if you want to defeat "Marx believed in co-op theory" / "Marx believed in Menshevism". China and Vietnam are each going through slow transformations. Marx describes a quick and thorough process of removing all the upper classes and handing each property structure to the emerging workers' state instead of managing the same thing in any way it was before. [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] there's none of this "we have to compromise between the three classes of China / Korea" stuff where Mao accidentally (?) recreates the medieval estate system.

			{{li\|I=S2/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Meet the liquidators with cannons (Marx) / Meet the petty bourgeoisie with cannons / [D]uring and immediately after the struggle the workers, as far as it is at all possible, must oppose bourgeois attempts at pacification and force the democrats to carry out their terroristic phrases. ... the immediate revolutionary excitement ... must be sustained as long as possible. Far from opposing the so-called excesses — instances of popular vengeance against hated individuals or against public buildings with which hateful memories are associated — the workers' party must not only tolerate these actions but must even give them direction. ... To be able forcefully and threateningly to oppose this party, whose betrayal of the workers will begin with the very first hour of victory ... the whole proletariat must be armed at once with muskets, rifles, cannon and ammunition, and the revival of the old-style citizens' militia, directed against the workers, must be opposed -><br/>
			well that's a surprisingly violent passage from Marx. to be fair though, he thought that some time between 1847 and 1861 there was going to very seriously be a Communist revolution across Europe. so it's not just phrases where he's valuing violence as some kind of abstract concept (a thing that Leninist theorists generally haven't done, but that Liberal-republicans constantly need clarification about), it was a prediction of what he thought would actually happen relatively soon.<br/>
			the takeaway: Marx was no fan of "[[E:ink brush Marxism (North Korea)\|ink brush socialism]]" where you try to justify three classes being equally valid. what he said was to the extent the older classes use their ability to call for peace to rule over everyone you simply have to suppress them beneath the workers' government, and all the workers oppose them with guns if it comes to that. you do have to give him credit for being so clear there; I feel like even Lenin wasn't always as clear as that. Trotsky on the other hand, I can see the resemblance.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Marx's strategy for transforming Germany sounded more like Trotskyism than it did like Deng Xiaoping Thought

2026-08-29T05:35:12Z

Marx's strategy for transforming Germany sounded more like Trotskyism than it did like Deng Xiaoping Thought

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:35, 29 August 2026
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MN\|Q=18,46\|Q2=1846\|h4= France and Germany together }} (1847) / The workers' revolutions in France and Germany will not be independent, but will build off each other (Marx 1847) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] / Their battle-cry must be permanent revolution (Marx; generic) -><br/>		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MN\|Q=18,46\|Q2=1846\|h4= France and Germany together }} (1847) / The workers' revolutions in France and Germany will not be independent, but will build off each other (Marx 1847) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] / Their battle-cry must be permanent revolution (Marx; generic) -><br/>
	it didn't really go that way, did it? it was more like, Eastern Europe and Germany together behind the Soviet Union, with both of them coming out as flawed messes in different ways.		it didn't really go that way, did it? it was more like, Eastern Europe and Germany together behind the Soviet Union, with both of them coming out as flawed messes in different ways.

			{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=18,46\|Q2=1846}}Marx's strategy for transforming Germany sounded more like Trotskyism than it did like Deng Xiaoping Thought -> the first plank if you want to defeat "Marx believed in co-op theory" / "Marx believed in Menshevism". China and Vietnam are each going through slow transformations. Marx describes a quick and thorough process of removing all the upper classes and handing each property structure to the emerging workers' state instead of managing the same thing in any way it was before. [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] there's none of this "we have to compromise between the three classes of China / Korea" stuff where Mao accidentally (?) recreates the medieval estate system.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	\|I=S1/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|MN\|M.N.}} / early Marxism		\|I=S1/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|MN\|M.N.}} / early Marxism
	{{li\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104}}{{TTS\|IV\|Fourth}} / Trotskyism		{{li\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104}}{{TTS\|IV\|Fourth}} / Trotskyism
			{{li\|I=S1/MX\|Q=44,44\|Q2=4444}}{{TTS\|MX\|meta-Marxism}} / Trotskyism as meta-Marxism
	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
	<!--		<!--

Reversedragon: France and Germany together (1847)

2026-08-29T05:07:58Z

France and Germany together (1847)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:07, 29 August 2026
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	{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}"><!-- inactive: {{int:hue-ixn-classname-DFy}} -->		{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}"><!-- inactive: {{int:hue-ixn-classname-DFy}} -->

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/IV\|Q=43,92\|Q2=4392}}permanent revolution (Trotskyism) / international permanent revolution (meta-Marxism onto Stalin's Marxism)		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/IV\|Q=43,92\|Q2=4392}}permanent revolution (Trotskyism) / international permanent revolution (meta-Marxism onto Stalin's Marxism) / worldwide revolution

	{{li\|I=F1/ES\|Q=43,91\|Q2=4391}}nationalism (George Orwell) {{9k\|RD\|Q43,91}} -> I put permanent revolution next to this one, because it is an absolutely delicious refutation of what Orwell was ranting about and tried to depict in {{book\|1984}}.		{{li\|I=F1/ES\|Q=43,91\|Q2=4391}}nationalism (George Orwell) {{9k\|RD\|Q43,91}} -> I put permanent revolution next to this one, because it is an absolutely delicious refutation of what Orwell was ranting about and tried to depict in {{book\|1984}}.

			</li></ol>

			== Marx and worldwide revolution ==
			<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">

			{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MN\|Q=18,46\|Q2=1846\|h4= France and Germany together }} (1847) / The workers' revolutions in France and Germany will not be independent, but will build off each other (Marx 1847) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1847/communist-league/1850-ad1.htm] / Their battle-cry must be permanent revolution (Marx; generic) -><br/>
			it didn't really go that way, did it? it was more like, Eastern Europe and Germany together behind the Soviet Union, with both of them coming out as flawed messes in different ways.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	<ol class="hue clean terse {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">		<ol class="hue clean terse {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">
	{{li\|start=y		{{li\|start=y
	\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104}}{{TTS\|IV\|Fourth}} / Trotskyism		\|I=S1/MN\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|MN\|M.N.}} / early Marxism
			{{li\|I=Z1/IV\|Q=41,04\|Q2=4104}}{{TTS\|IV\|Fourth}} / Trotskyism
	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
	<!--		<!--

Reversedragon: Stalinists were a counterrevolution

2026-08-19T23:56:53Z

Stalinists were a counterrevolution

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:56, 19 August 2026
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	== Related ==		== Related ==
	~~<!--~~
	<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">		<ol class="hue clean {{int:hue-ixn-classname-ML}}">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=M3/IV\|~~tradition~~=ML, IV\|Q=~~44,17~~\|Q2=~~4417~~}}		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/IV\|Q=41,84\|Q2=4184\|h4= Stalinists were a counterrevolution }} / Stalinism begins when older forms of society crush the proletarian revolution; this is to imply it is similar to when the Jacobins were defeated in the French Revolution / ({{9k\|RD/Q4000}})

	</li></ol~~>--~~>		</li></ol>

	== Ideologies or fields ==		== Ideologies or fields ==

Reversedragon: nationalism (George Orwell)

2026-08-19T05:47:03Z

nationalism (George Orwell)

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:47, 19 August 2026
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	{{li\|start=y\|\|I=S1/IV\|Q=43,92\|Q2=4392}}permanent revolution (Trotskyism) / international permanent revolution (meta-Marxism onto Stalin's Marxism)		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/IV\|Q=43,92\|Q2=4392}}permanent revolution (Trotskyism) / international permanent revolution (meta-Marxism onto Stalin's Marxism)

			{{li\|I=F1/ES\|Q=43,91\|Q2=4391}}nationalism (George Orwell) {{9k\|RD\|Q43,91}} -> I put permanent revolution next to this one, because it is an absolutely delicious refutation of what Orwell was ranting about and tried to depict in {{book\|1984}}.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>