Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q61,20 - Revision history

Reversedragon: Stalin was exactly as Evil as Chara

2026-09-14T23:28:21Z

Stalin was exactly as Evil as Chara

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:28, 14 September 2026
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	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

	== Undertale as Marxist narrative ==		== Undertale as Marxist (Stalinist) narrative ==
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

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	{{li\|I=S1/ML\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}"the underground" as Communist party (Undertale-Deltarune) / "the underground" as Bolshevik party (Undertale) / Dess's allies as underground Communist organization (Deltarune) / the underground was to be a mere skeleton apparatus (Martov, Menshevik ally) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1975/lenin1/chap17.htm] / the striving to break with the old underground and embark upon open and public ... activity (Bogdanov, Bolshevik ally) -> god, after spending a day thinking hard about Undertale and Deltarune worldbuilding these sentences read so weirdly. I am 97% sure this was {{em\|not}} intentional symbolism within Undertale, and yet once you see it you can't unsee it. Undertale and Deltarune [[EC:9k/RD/Q618-UminekoNoNakuKoroNi\|accidentally copying Communist imagery from Umineko]] is the gift that keeps on giving.		{{li\|I=S1/ML\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}"the underground" as Communist party (Undertale-Deltarune) / "the underground" as Bolshevik party (Undertale) / Dess's allies as underground Communist organization (Deltarune) / the underground was to be a mere skeleton apparatus (Martov, Menshevik ally) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1975/lenin1/chap17.htm] / the striving to break with the old underground and embark upon open and public ... activity (Bogdanov, Bolshevik ally) -> god, after spending a day thinking hard about Undertale and Deltarune worldbuilding these sentences read so weirdly. I am 97% sure this was {{em\|not}} intentional symbolism within Undertale, and yet once you see it you can't unsee it. Undertale and Deltarune [[EC:9k/RD/Q618-UminekoNoNakuKoroNi\|accidentally copying Communist imagery from Umineko]] is the gift that keeps on giving.

	~~{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4= Deltarune is a pro-Trotskyist narrative }} / ({{9k\|RDIntoInsanity}}) -> I know this sounds completely off the wall but I can explain.<br/>~~
	Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>
	I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories (not that he's bad at conveying or illustrating those interpretations in a way interesting enough to hide that fact) so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.

	{{li\|I=S1/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}they know how to swim against the stream in the deep conviction that the new historic flood will carry them to the other shore ... many will drown (Trotsky) / ({{9k\|RD/Q19,04}}) -> I can be about 99% sure this wasn't intentionally in Deltarune, but even so, it is absolutely hilarious to find. like, it's not just common images appearing both places, the imagery is used with the exact same associations to make nearly the same point, it's only the subject of the statement being made that's different.

	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}The bible is one of the most anti-semitic texts ever written / ... Zionism and Duginism are a kind of internalized racism, and ... revolutionary defeatism is an act of defeating internalized prejudice -> a little advanced for a Deltarune page, but, this idea in a more generalized form would be key to interpreting the internal history of the Deltarune universe. you get this entire big idea implied in the opening scene of Deltarune. Susie biting faces is like, the most tiny nutshell summary of what monster history probably looked like hundreds of years ago. if monsters attacked humans it was because they did not know the value of their own identity or civilization. while if monsters somehow invented Communism, they would come to know their own value and that problem would go away.<br/>		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}The bible is one of the most anti-semitic texts ever written / ... Zionism and Duginism are a kind of internalized racism, and ... revolutionary defeatism is an act of defeating internalized prejudice -> a little advanced for a Deltarune page, but, this idea in a more generalized form would be key to interpreting the internal history of the Deltarune universe. you get this entire big idea implied in the opening scene of Deltarune. Susie biting faces is like, the most tiny nutshell summary of what monster history probably looked like hundreds of years ago. if monsters attacked humans it was because they did not know the value of their own identity or civilization. while if monsters somehow invented Communism, they would come to know their own value and that problem would go away.<br/>
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	{{li\|I=S2/ML\|Q=45,26\|Q2=4526}}Stalin could have stopped / {{book\|Animal Farm}} pacifist route (sense)		{{li\|I=S2/ML\|Q=45,26\|Q2=4526}}Stalin could have stopped / {{book\|Animal Farm}} pacifist route (sense)

			{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|Q=45,27\|Q2=4527}}Stalin was exactly as Evil as Chara -> there we go. this is the concise way to say it

			</li></ol>

			== Undertale as Trotskyist narrative ==
			<ol class="hue clean">

			{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4= Deltarune is a pro-Trotskyist narrative }} / ({{9k\|RDIntoInsanity}}) -> I know this sounds completely off the wall but I can explain.<br/>
			Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>
			I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories (not that he's bad at conveying or illustrating those interpretations in a way interesting enough to hide that fact) so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.

			{{li\|I=S1/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}they know how to swim against the stream in the deep conviction that the new historic flood will carry them to the other shore ... many will drown (Trotsky) / ({{9k\|RD/Q19,04}}) -> I can be about 99% sure this wasn't intentionally in Deltarune, but even so, it is absolutely hilarious to find. like, it's not just common images appearing both places, the imagery is used with the exact same associations to make nearly the same point, it's only the subject of the statement being made that's different.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/HAS\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= machine heart }} (Daoism) {{YouTube\|xgdyv8VEpeE}} -> this is some prime pre-capitalist BS that, without much exaggeration, illustrates what's wrong with the world. (the original story, not so much the video.)<br/>		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/HAS\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= machine heart }} (Daoism) {{YouTube\|xgdyv8VEpeE}} -> this is some prime pre-capitalist BS that, without much exaggeration, illustrates what's wrong with the world. (the original story, not so much the video.)<br/>
	the gardener rejects an early capitalist's fancy irrigation equipment. <s>(I imagined a sprinkler, but at that time I'm guessing it was a bit more like an irrigation canal? anyway it's a machine that can be installed over a farm field by a few people, I'm not sure by one person but I'm guessing by less than 50.)</s> he treats this like it's really profound. then Confucius says that if his ideas can't be applied to the real world to change it they aren't achieving anything. which is a much better lesson. this makes me seriously wonder if this fable was actually being spread around by the early [[E:Communist Party of China\|CPC]]. I need to investigate that.<br/>		the gardener rejects an early capitalist's fancy irrigation equipment. <s>(I imagined a sprinkler, but at that time I'm guessing it was a bit more like an irrigation canal? anyway it's a machine that can be installed over a farm field by a few people, I'm not sure by one person but I'm guessing by less than 50.)</s> he treats this like it's really profound. then Confucius says that if his ideas can't be applied to the real world to change it they aren't achieving anything. which is a much better lesson. this makes me seriously wonder if this fable was actually being spread around by the early [[E:Communist Party of China\|CPC]]. I need to investigate that.<br/>
	so, the video I found takes in that story and then it concludes... it was good for the man to reject early capitalism coming to China and drive the capitalists out. no, that's not good. as for that particular man who knows — maybe he'd be fine — but this story is spread around like a general pattern applying to a lot of people. and like, if everybody does this you get a China where everybody hates cities, and when people hate cities they turn into nazis. Heidegger — ranted about modern technology making the world worse, nazi ally, Nazi party shortly showed up to defend all the people who existed before capitalism and say those people should keep ruling it. Dugin — turned against Stalin and the pain of industrialization in Russia, ranted about technology-adjacent things, became a [[E:Duginism\|nazi]], urged Russia toward invading Ukraine. United States — has farm capitalists rather than peasants, they rant about cities, they've been turning into nazis. do you see the problem now?<br/>		so, the video I found takes in that story and then it concludes... it was good for the man to reject early capitalism coming to China and drive the capitalists out. no, that's not good. as for that particular man, who knows — maybe he'd be fine — but this story is spread around like a general pattern applying to a lot of people. and like, if everybody does this you get a China where everybody hates cities, and when people hate cities they turn into nazis. Heidegger — ranted about modern technology making the world worse, nazi ally, Nazi party shortly showed up to defend all the people who existed before capitalism and say those people should keep ruling it. Dugin — turned against Stalin and the pain of industrialization in Russia, ranted about technology-adjacent things, became a [[E:Duginism\|nazi]], urged Russia toward invading Ukraine. United States — has farm capitalists rather than peasants, they rant about cities, they've been turning into nazis. do you see the problem now?<br/>
	if you click up any video commenting on Deltarune it's so frustrating. Deltarune has this wonderful pile of Materialist themes and accidentally-Communist images, but everyone always pulls the worst interpretations out of them and gets these like very specifically, {{em\|unnecessarily specific}} bourgeois narratives out of it and I'm like, {{em\|no!!}} hitting my fist on the table, {{i\|why is this always the way people read it where is your imagination}}<br/>		if you click up any video commenting on Deltarune it's so frustrating. Deltarune has this wonderful pile of Materialist themes and accidentally-Communist images, but everyone always pulls the worst interpretations out of them and gets these like very specifically, {{em\|unnecessarily specific}} bourgeois narratives out of it and I'm like, {{em\|no!!}} hitting my fist on the table, {{i\|why is this always the way people read it where is your imagination}}<br/>
	like I'm going to be honest, I don't need everyone reading Deltarune as Communism. that's my thing, and I used to believe it was impossible to get a Marxist reading out of Deltarune back when Chapter 2 released. so. I'd take a weirdly elaborate theory about how Rudy is the Knight and what somebody suddenly became convinced one day the real-life symbolism of that was. I'd take a reading of Deltarune purely as metafiction where games are like an elaborate chess match between the player and Gaster or Noelle and Gaster or whoever. I'd take anything that somehow wasn't... {{em\|this}}.<br/>		like I'm going to be honest, I don't need everyone reading Deltarune as Communism. that's my thing, and I used to believe it was impossible to get a Marxist reading out of Deltarune back when Chapter 2 released. so. I'd take a weirdly elaborate theory about how Rudy is the Knight and what somebody suddenly became convinced one day the real-life symbolism of that was. I'd take a reading of Deltarune purely as metafiction where games are like an elaborate chess match between the player and Gaster or Noelle and Gaster or whoever. I'd take anything that somehow wasn't... {{em\|this}}.<br/>

Reversedragon: Animal Farm pacifist route

2026-08-21T04:40:38Z

Animal Farm pacifist route

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:40, 21 August 2026
Line 54:		Line 54:
	this does happen in Auldernet. monsters and humans on the Far Side invent Communism. and humans on the Near Side absolutely hate it, because it doesn't fit any of their narratives. monsters on the Far Side aren't brutes. but monsters didn't create Communism without the help of humans based on their monster nature either. it just {{em\|happened}} for reasons the Near-Siders don't understand. so they're terrified.		this does happen in Auldernet. monsters and humans on the Far Side invent Communism. and humans on the Near Side absolutely hate it, because it doesn't fit any of their narratives. monsters on the Far Side aren't brutes. but monsters didn't create Communism without the help of humans based on their monster nature either. it just {{em\|happened}} for reasons the Near-Siders don't understand. so they're terrified.

	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=~~618~~\|Q2=~~618~~}}Block Stalin from [[E:EarthBound Halloween Hack\|Dr. Andonuts]] ~~/ Stalin could have stopped~~ / If Stalin could have foreseen at the very beginning where his fight against Trotskyism would lead, he undoubtedly would have stopped short, in spite of the prospect of victory over all his opponents. But he did not foresee anything. The prophecies of his opponents that he would become the leader of the Thermidor, the grave digger of the Party of the Revolution, seemed to him empty imaginings (Trotsky) [https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/the-icfi-defends-trotskyism-1982-1986/02.html] -> yeah, it's exactly this.<br/>		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=45,26\|Q2=4526}}Block Stalin from [[E:EarthBound Halloween Hack\|Dr. Andonuts]] / If Stalin could have foreseen at the very beginning where his fight against Trotskyism would lead, he undoubtedly would have stopped short, in spite of the prospect of victory over all his opponents. But he did not foresee anything. The prophecies of his opponents that he would become the leader of the Thermidor, the grave digger of the Party of the Revolution, seemed to him empty imaginings (Trotsky) [https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/the-icfi-defends-trotskyism-1982-1986/02.html] -> yeah, it's exactly this.<br/>
	my mind is now weirdly thinking about Undertale but I just can't make a coherent thought crystallize.		my mind is now weirdly thinking about Undertale but I just can't make a coherent thought crystallize.

			{{li\|I=S2/ML\|Q=45,26\|Q2=4526}}Stalin could have stopped / {{book\|Animal Farm}} pacifist route (sense)

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: If Stalin could have foreseen at the very beginning where his fight against Trotskyism would lead, he undoubtedly would have stopped short ...

2026-08-21T04:34:45Z

If Stalin could have foreseen at the very beginning where his fight against Trotskyism would lead, he undoubtedly would have stopped short ...

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:34, 21 August 2026
Line 53:		Line 53:
	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}The bible is one of the most anti-semitic texts ever written / ... Zionism and Duginism are a kind of internalized racism, and ... revolutionary defeatism is an act of defeating internalized prejudice -> a little advanced for a Deltarune page, but, this idea in a more generalized form would be key to interpreting the internal history of the Deltarune universe. you get this entire big idea implied in the opening scene of Deltarune. Susie biting faces is like, the most tiny nutshell summary of what monster history probably looked like hundreds of years ago. if monsters attacked humans it was because they did not know the value of their own identity or civilization. while if monsters somehow invented Communism, they would come to know their own value and that problem would go away.<br/>		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}The bible is one of the most anti-semitic texts ever written / ... Zionism and Duginism are a kind of internalized racism, and ... revolutionary defeatism is an act of defeating internalized prejudice -> a little advanced for a Deltarune page, but, this idea in a more generalized form would be key to interpreting the internal history of the Deltarune universe. you get this entire big idea implied in the opening scene of Deltarune. Susie biting faces is like, the most tiny nutshell summary of what monster history probably looked like hundreds of years ago. if monsters attacked humans it was because they did not know the value of their own identity or civilization. while if monsters somehow invented Communism, they would come to know their own value and that problem would go away.<br/>
	this does happen in Auldernet. monsters and humans on the Far Side invent Communism. and humans on the Near Side absolutely hate it, because it doesn't fit any of their narratives. monsters on the Far Side aren't brutes. but monsters didn't create Communism without the help of humans based on their monster nature either. it just {{em\|happened}} for reasons the Near-Siders don't understand. so they're terrified.		this does happen in Auldernet. monsters and humans on the Far Side invent Communism. and humans on the Near Side absolutely hate it, because it doesn't fit any of their narratives. monsters on the Far Side aren't brutes. but monsters didn't create Communism without the help of humans based on their monster nature either. it just {{em\|happened}} for reasons the Near-Siders don't understand. so they're terrified.

			{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Block Stalin from [[E:EarthBound Halloween Hack\|Dr. Andonuts]] / Stalin could have stopped / If Stalin could have foreseen at the very beginning where his fight against Trotskyism would lead, he undoubtedly would have stopped short, in spite of the prospect of victory over all his opponents. But he did not foresee anything. The prophecies of his opponents that he would become the leader of the Thermidor, the grave digger of the Party of the Revolution, seemed to him empty imaginings (Trotsky) [https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/the-icfi-defends-trotskyism-1982-1986/02.html] -> yeah, it's exactly this.<br/>
			my mind is now weirdly thinking about Undertale but I just can't make a coherent thought crystallize.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: they know how to swim against the stream in the deep conviction that the new historic flood will carry them to the other shore

2026-08-20T07:40:29Z

they know how to swim against the stream in the deep conviction that the new historic flood will carry them to the other shore

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:40, 20 August 2026
Line 48:		Line 48:
	Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>		Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>
	I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories (not that he's bad at conveying or illustrating those interpretations in a way interesting enough to hide that fact) so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.		I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories (not that he's bad at conveying or illustrating those interpretations in a way interesting enough to hide that fact) so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.

			{{li\|I=S1/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}they know how to swim against the stream in the deep conviction that the new historic flood will carry them to the other shore ... many will drown (Trotsky) / ({{9k\|RD/Q19,04}}) -> I can be about 99% sure this wasn't intentionally in Deltarune, but even so, it is absolutely hilarious to find. like, it's not just common images appearing both places, the imagery is used with the exact same associations to make nearly the same point, it's only the subject of the statement being made that's different.

	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}The bible is one of the most anti-semitic texts ever written / ... Zionism and Duginism are a kind of internalized racism, and ... revolutionary defeatism is an act of defeating internalized prejudice -> a little advanced for a Deltarune page, but, this idea in a more generalized form would be key to interpreting the internal history of the Deltarune universe. you get this entire big idea implied in the opening scene of Deltarune. Susie biting faces is like, the most tiny nutshell summary of what monster history probably looked like hundreds of years ago. if monsters attacked humans it was because they did not know the value of their own identity or civilization. while if monsters somehow invented Communism, they would come to know their own value and that problem would go away.<br/>		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}The bible is one of the most anti-semitic texts ever written / ... Zionism and Duginism are a kind of internalized racism, and ... revolutionary defeatism is an act of defeating internalized prejudice -> a little advanced for a Deltarune page, but, this idea in a more generalized form would be key to interpreting the internal history of the Deltarune universe. you get this entire big idea implied in the opening scene of Deltarune. Susie biting faces is like, the most tiny nutshell summary of what monster history probably looked like hundreds of years ago. if monsters attacked humans it was because they did not know the value of their own identity or civilization. while if monsters somehow invented Communism, they would come to know their own value and that problem would go away.<br/>

Reversedragon: The bible is one of the most anti-semitic texts ever written

2026-08-19T10:44:01Z

The bible is one of the most anti-semitic texts ever written

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:44, 19 August 2026
Line 48:		Line 48:
	Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>		Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>
	I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories (not that he's bad at conveying or illustrating those interpretations in a way interesting enough to hide that fact) so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.		I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories (not that he's bad at conveying or illustrating those interpretations in a way interesting enough to hide that fact) so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.

			{{li\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}The bible is one of the most anti-semitic texts ever written / ... Zionism and Duginism are a kind of internalized racism, and ... revolutionary defeatism is an act of defeating internalized prejudice -> a little advanced for a Deltarune page, but, this idea in a more generalized form would be key to interpreting the internal history of the Deltarune universe. you get this entire big idea implied in the opening scene of Deltarune. Susie biting faces is like, the most tiny nutshell summary of what monster history probably looked like hundreds of years ago. if monsters attacked humans it was because they did not know the value of their own identity or civilization. while if monsters somehow invented Communism, they would come to know their own value and that problem would go away.<br/>
			this does happen in Auldernet. monsters and humans on the Far Side invent Communism. and humans on the Near Side absolutely hate it, because it doesn't fit any of their narratives. monsters on the Far Side aren't brutes. but monsters didn't create Communism without the help of humans based on their monster nature either. it just {{em\|happened}} for reasons the Near-Siders don't understand. so they're terrified.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: machine heart (Daoism)

2026-08-11T20:22:26Z

machine heart (Daoism)

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:22, 11 August 2026
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}Sociality is but a dream / The Roaring is comparable to how all relationships seem terribly fragile and temporary while isolation seems more likely or eternal		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}Sociality is but a dream / The Roaring is comparable to how all relationships seem terribly fragile and temporary while isolation seems more likely or eternal

			</li></ol>

			== Deltarune and anticommunism ==
			<ol class="hue clean">

			{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/HAS\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= machine heart }} (Daoism) {{YouTube\|xgdyv8VEpeE}} -> this is some prime pre-capitalist BS that, without much exaggeration, illustrates what's wrong with the world. (the original story, not so much the video.)<br/>
			the gardener rejects an early capitalist's fancy irrigation equipment. <s>(I imagined a sprinkler, but at that time I'm guessing it was a bit more like an irrigation canal? anyway it's a machine that can be installed over a farm field by a few people, I'm not sure by one person but I'm guessing by less than 50.)</s> he treats this like it's really profound. then Confucius says that if his ideas can't be applied to the real world to change it they aren't achieving anything. which is a much better lesson. this makes me seriously wonder if this fable was actually being spread around by the early [[E:Communist Party of China\|CPC]]. I need to investigate that.<br/>
			so, the video I found takes in that story and then it concludes... it was good for the man to reject early capitalism coming to China and drive the capitalists out. no, that's not good. as for that particular man who knows — maybe he'd be fine — but this story is spread around like a general pattern applying to a lot of people. and like, if everybody does this you get a China where everybody hates cities, and when people hate cities they turn into nazis. Heidegger — ranted about modern technology making the world worse, nazi ally, Nazi party shortly showed up to defend all the people who existed before capitalism and say those people should keep ruling it. Dugin — turned against Stalin and the pain of industrialization in Russia, ranted about technology-adjacent things, became a [[E:Duginism\|nazi]], urged Russia toward invading Ukraine. United States — has farm capitalists rather than peasants, they rant about cities, they've been turning into nazis. do you see the problem now?<br/>
			if you click up any video commenting on Deltarune it's so frustrating. Deltarune has this wonderful pile of Materialist themes and accidentally-Communist images, but everyone always pulls the worst interpretations out of them and gets these like very specifically, {{em\|unnecessarily specific}} bourgeois narratives out of it and I'm like, {{em\|no!!}} hitting my fist on the table, {{i\|why is this always the way people read it where is your imagination}}<br/>
			like I'm going to be honest, I don't need everyone reading Deltarune as Communism. that's my thing, and I used to believe it was impossible to get a Marxist reading out of Deltarune back when Chapter 2 released. so. I'd take a weirdly elaborate theory about how Rudy is the Knight and what somebody suddenly became convinced one day the real-life symbolism of that was. I'd take a reading of Deltarune purely as metafiction where games are like an elaborate chess match between the player and Gaster or Noelle and Gaster or whoever. I'd take anything that somehow wasn't... {{em\|this}}.<br/>
			that said. the end of the video where the musician found a way to "glitch" or "corrupt" an erhu was wonderful. it had basically nothing to do with the Daoist parable, and that made it actually fine

			{{li\|I=S1/HAS\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}machine heart (Daoism) -> it's not an irrigation canal, it's a well pump! that makes the story even funnier. like, gosh, even some wealthier peasants had well pumps I think. not even having a water pump would be rather unusual. although if I remember right it seems like some villages in Africa didn't have them into the 2000s. I think it's an urbanization thing that happens as you go toward the very first cities or large towns. a large enough village will have a water pump, but maybe some of the most basic peasants that exist first won't have one. gosh I never thought I would get deeply fascinated by the historical materialism of well pumps. here we are.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	-->		-->
	== Full title for bookmarks (optional) ==		== Full title for bookmarks (optional) ==
	<pre>[9k] antiwar movements & Idealism - Q61,20;6120 ; Undertale mirrors U.S. antiwar , US anti-war movements ; ... have always been Idealist</pre>		<pre>[9k] antiwar movements & Idealism - Q61,20;6120 ; Undertale mirrors U.S. antiwar , US anti-war movements , ... have always been Idealist ; undertale as Marxist , Communist , Trotskyist narrative</pre>

	[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]] <!-- page ends here. TTS-unfriendly numbers incoming		[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]] <!-- page ends here. TTS-unfriendly numbers incoming
	redirects: [[User:RD/9k/Q6120]]		redirects: [[User:RD/9k/Q6120]]
	duplication hint: copy markup from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNN\|~~9k/~~Q61,20]] -->		duplication hint: copy markup from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNN\|Q61,20]] -->

Reversedragon: Sociality is but a dream

2026-08-03T14:42:30Z

Sociality is but a dream

← Older revision		Revision as of 14:42, 3 August 2026
Line 48:		Line 48:
	Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>		Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>
	I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories (not that he's bad at conveying or illustrating those interpretations in a way interesting enough to hide that fact) so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.		I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories (not that he's bad at conveying or illustrating those interpretations in a way interesting enough to hide that fact) so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.

			</li></ol>

			== Deltarune and meta-Marxism ==
			<ol class="hue clean">

			{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/MX\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4-rem=}}Sociality is but a dream / The Roaring is comparable to how all relationships seem terribly fragile and temporary while isolation seems more likely or eternal

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: "the underground" as Communist party (Undertale-Deltarune)

2026-08-03T10:04:14Z

"the underground" as Communist party (Undertale-Deltarune)

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:04, 3 August 2026
Line 38:		Line 38:
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

	<li ~~class~~=~~"field_ML" data-~~tradition="MX onto JC~~" value~~="618~~" data~~-~~dimension~~=~~"S">~~Undertale and North Korea / the Underground is basically North Korea / Communist phoenixes ({{thingamajig~~\|caps=y~~\|Redacted}}Tale AU) -> the motif of comparing the Undertale setting to honest models of North Korea (not the pro-capitalist or pro-Tory ones) and pointing out that in some ways making this game was the only way to make United States people understand Third-World countries.		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/DX\|tradition=MX onto JC\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}Undertale and North Korea / the Underground is basically North Korea / Communist phoenixes ({{thingamajig\|Redacted}}Tale AU) -> the motif of comparing the Undertale setting to honest models of North Korea (not the pro-capitalist or pro-Tory ones) and pointing out that in some ways making this game was the only way to make United States people understand Third-World countries.

	</li~~><li class~~=~~"field_ML" data-~~tradition="MX onto ML~~" value~~="618~~" data~~-~~dimension~~=~~"S2">~~Undertale is evidence people wish Bolshevism was possible / The great popularity of Undertale is evidence First-World people wish Bolshevism was possible although nobody has any idea how or if it is -> there's no contradiction in saying both the statements "Undertale is based on Idealist movements" and "you write something like Undertale when people wish Bolshevism was possible but nobody has any idea if it is".<br />		{{li\|I=S2/ML\|tradition=MX onto ML\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}Undertale is evidence people wish Bolshevism was possible / The great popularity of Undertale is evidence First-World people wish Bolshevism was possible although nobody has any idea how or if it is -> there's no contradiction in saying both the statements "Undertale is based on Idealist movements" and "you write something like Undertale when people wish Bolshevism was possible but nobody has any idea if it is".<br/>
	this one eats at me. it's so hard to not just shout from the rooftops "Undertale is a narrative about forming a society that holds all people instead of an empire and the material conditions resemble North Korea and that logically leads to Bolshevism". but I know people will think I'm weird. so... when I get "Auldernet" finished in some capacity. only then.		this one eats at me. it's so hard to not just shout from the rooftops "Undertale is a narrative about forming a society that holds all people instead of an empire and the material conditions resemble North Korea and that logically leads to Bolshevism". but I know people will think I'm weird. so... when I get "Auldernet" finished in some capacity. only then.

	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618}}Deltarune is a pro-Trotskyist narrative -> I know this sounds completely off the wall but I can explain.<br/>		{{li\|I=S1/ML\|tradition=\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4-rem=}}"the underground" as Communist party (Undertale-Deltarune) / "the underground" as Bolshevik party (Undertale) / Dess's allies as underground Communist organization (Deltarune) / the underground was to be a mere skeleton apparatus (Martov, Menshevik ally) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1975/lenin1/chap17.htm] / the striving to break with the old underground and embark upon open and public ... activity (Bogdanov, Bolshevik ally) -> god, after spending a day thinking hard about Undertale and Deltarune worldbuilding these sentences read so weirdly. I am 97% sure this was {{em\|not}} intentional symbolism within Undertale, and yet once you see it you can't unsee it. Undertale and Deltarune [[EC:9k/RD/Q618-UminekoNoNakuKoroNi\|accidentally copying Communist imagery from Umineko]] is the gift that keeps on giving.

			{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618\|h4= Deltarune is a pro-Trotskyist narrative }} / ({{9k\|RDIntoInsanity}}) -> I know this sounds completely off the wall but I can explain.<br/>
	Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>		Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>
	I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.		I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories (not that he's bad at conveying or illustrating those interpretations in a way interesting enough to hide that fact) so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Undertale and North Korea

2026-06-28T07:29:35Z

Undertale and North Korea

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:29, 28 June 2026
Line 38:		Line 38:
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

	<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="MX onto ML" value="618" data-dimension="S2">Undertale is evidence people wish Bolshevism was possible / The great popularity of Undertale is evidence First-World people wish Bolshevism was possible although nobody has any idea how or if it is -> there's no contradiction in saying both the statements "Undertale is based on Idealist movements" and "you write something like Undertale when people wish Bolshevism was possible but nobody has any idea if it is".<br />		<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="MX onto JC" value="618" data-dimension="S">Undertale and North Korea / the Underground is basically North Korea / Communist phoenixes ({{thingamajig\|caps=y\|Redacted}}Tale AU) -> the motif of comparing the Undertale setting to honest models of North Korea (not the pro-capitalist or pro-Tory ones) and pointing out that in some ways making this game was the only way to make United States people understand Third-World countries.

			</li><li class="field_ML" data-tradition="MX onto ML" value="618" data-dimension="S2">Undertale is evidence people wish Bolshevism was possible / The great popularity of Undertale is evidence First-World people wish Bolshevism was possible although nobody has any idea how or if it is -> there's no contradiction in saying both the statements "Undertale is based on Idealist movements" and "you write something like Undertale when people wish Bolshevism was possible but nobody has any idea if it is".<br />
	this one eats at me. it's so hard to not just shout from the rooftops "Undertale is a narrative about forming a society that holds all people instead of an empire and the material conditions resemble North Korea and that logically leads to Bolshevism". but I know people will think I'm weird. so... when I get "Auldernet" finished in some capacity. only then.		this one eats at me. it's so hard to not just shout from the rooftops "Undertale is a narrative about forming a society that holds all people instead of an empire and the material conditions resemble North Korea and that logically leads to Bolshevism". but I know people will think I'm weird. so... when I get "Auldernet" finished in some capacity. only then.

Reversedragon: Undertale is evidence people wish Bolshevism was possible

2026-06-27T08:24:37Z

Undertale is evidence people wish Bolshevism was possible

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:24, 27 June 2026
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/W\|tradition=MX onto W/ES/A\|Q=61,20\|Q2=6120\|h4 = Undertale mirrors U.S. antiwar movements }} / Undertale is the way it is because of the shape of United States antiwar movements -> so, I have a weird history with movements and being on the total fringes of them for most of my life when they would ripple out and hit me but I would only really get them secondhand. around 2014-2015 I got hit by the ripples of BLM. morality was everywhere. [[:Category:Existentialist-Structuralist tradition ontology\|Existentialism]] was everywhere, and this concept that people will automatically flip over and change their minds if you only shout <i>individuals individuals human rights identities individuals that is an individual you are an individual identity identity people like each other because they are different</i> enough. in the beginning when I was literally a [[E:right-Liberalism\|right-Libertarian]] that made some kind of sense to me, but as soon as I started actually not being a conservative all of it increasingly made less and less sense until I was like, where did any of this even come from and how does anyone even think it's correct? I read non-Marxist texts like I was supposed to and none of them made any sense, so I just kept digging and digging and digging on every single lead I could find anywhere to try to figure out where <em>any</em> of this philosophy coherently originated from whether people were creating it consciously or not. most of my research focused only on the past decade and how people could derive ideologies from scratch.<br />		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/W\|tradition=MX onto W/ES/A\|Q=61,20\|Q2=6120\|h4 = Undertale mirrors U.S. antiwar movements }} / Undertale is the way it is because of the shape of United States antiwar movements -> so, I have a weird history with movements and being on the total fringes of them for most of my life when they would ripple out and hit me but I would only really get them secondhand. around 2014-2015 I got hit by the ripples of BLM. morality was everywhere. [[:Category:Existentialist-Structuralist tradition ontology\|Existentialism]] was everywhere, and this concept that people will automatically flip over and change their minds if you only shout <i>individuals individuals human rights identities individuals that is an individual you are an individual identity identity people like each other because they are different</i> enough. in the beginning when I was literally a [[E:right-Liberalism\|right-Libertarian]] that made some kind of sense to me, but as soon as I started actually not being a conservative all of it increasingly made less and less sense until I was like, where did any of this even come from and how does anyone even think it's correct? I read non-Marxist texts like I was supposed to and none of them made any sense, so I just kept digging and digging and digging on every single lead I could find anywhere to try to figure out where <em>any</em> of this philosophy coherently originated from whether people were creating it consciously or not. most of my research focused only on the past decade and how people could derive ideologies from scratch.<br />
	most recently, [[E:U.S. antiwar movements have always been Idealist\|I realized]] that past United States antiwar movements had already been this. past large-scale movements in the United States had had the shape of anarchist Idealism, and not at all the shape of Marxism. finally, the outpouring of works like <cite>Undertale</cite> and <cite>Steven Universe</cite> started to make sense. the exact way they were portraying the notion of breaking up war was based on things like the Vietnam War period, in which despite the war being against Communism it wasn't actually Communists trying to stop it. and I'm not just saying the obvious fact of "a Marxist movement isn't mostly made of Marxist theorists", what I'm saying is, "it's as if the whole entire movement was [[E:undialectical idealism, historical non-materialism, and class non-analysis\|thoroughly not Marxist]] and anarchists were forming the theorist layer and trying to form the [[E:central party-nation (meta-Marxism)\|party-nation]]". nobody will ever be able to do historical materialism again if we don't understand workers' movements as plural bodies of people with different colors of theorists on top that realize different kinds of countries. incidentally yeah I think Trotsky accidentally set the whole world back purely by claiming workers didn't really belong to plural countries or [[EC:9k/RD/Q4189\|plural workers' states]]. come on, Trotsky, [[E:sea of free-floating entities\|every object is plural]].		most recently, [[E:U.S. antiwar movements have always been Idealist\|I realized]] that past United States antiwar movements had already been this. past large-scale movements in the United States had had the shape of anarchist Idealism, and not at all the shape of Marxism. finally, the outpouring of works like <cite>Undertale</cite> and <cite>Steven Universe</cite> started to make sense. the exact way they were portraying the notion of breaking up war was based on things like the Vietnam War period, in which despite the war being against Communism it wasn't actually Communists trying to stop it. and I'm not just saying the obvious fact of "[[E:Invert blue no matter who\|a Marxist movement isn't mostly made of Marxist theorists]]", what I'm saying is, "it's as if the whole entire movement was [[E:undialectical idealism, historical non-materialism, and class non-analysis\|thoroughly not Marxist]] and anarchists were forming the theorist layer and trying to form the [[E:central party-nation (meta-Marxism)\|party-nation]]". nobody will ever be able to do historical materialism again if we don't understand workers' movements as plural bodies of people with different colors of theorists on top that realize different kinds of countries. incidentally yeah I think Trotsky accidentally set the whole world back purely by claiming workers didn't really belong to plural countries or [[EC:9k/RD/Q4189\|plural workers' states]]. come on, Trotsky, [[E:sea of free-floating entities\|every object is plural]].

	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4 = U.S. antiwar movements have always been Idealist }} / United States antiwar movements have historically always been Idealist / Marxist Jake believes Leninism is forming a Materialist social-democratic party, filtering it into a party-nation, and somehow filling it with workers. By Jake's definition, no anti-war movement in the United States has ever been a Marxist movement -> this really struck me when reading a book that was accidentally about the Vietnam War. the entire framing of the thing for normal people (and by that I do mean the bourgeoisie that represent them) was morality and basically the notion of war being a social construct and a thing that every individual has to choose to drop or sustain some kind of attack. there's not really any Marxism in there; that could quite easily devolve into a nationality of anarchists attacking a nationality of Liberal-republicans just for being part of the wrong nationality and not immediately assimilating into anarchism. and when you think of things this way, that previous antiwar movements in the United States <em>are</em> United States antiwar movements, you start to really see how "the left we have" being "non-Marxist" is a lot more than a color swatch, and in practice means that when United States people practice "revolutionary defeatism" the population is pursuing a totally different transition out of capitalism than what any Marxist strategy looks like assuming it pursues one at all. if you want people to work with "the left we have" you have to get comfortable with the concept of a [[Term:charcoal transition\|charcoal transition]] and that you might have to toss every bit of your Marxist theory out the window and learn a big stack of anarchist or [[:Category:Existentialist-Structuralist tradition ontology\|Existentialist]] theory, that the United States might get <em>all the way through transition to a new system</em> before Marxism ever begins to apply.<br />		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4 = U.S. antiwar movements have always been Idealist }} / United States antiwar movements have historically always been Idealist / Marxist Jake believes Leninism is forming a Materialist social-democratic party, filtering it into a party-nation, and somehow filling it with workers. By Jake's definition, no anti-war movement in the United States has ever been a Marxist movement -> this really struck me when reading a book that was accidentally about the Vietnam War. the entire framing of the thing for normal people (and by that I do mean the bourgeoisie that represent them) was morality and basically the notion of war being a social construct and a thing that every individual has to choose to drop or sustain some kind of attack. there's not really any Marxism in there; that could quite easily devolve into a nationality of anarchists attacking a nationality of Liberal-republicans just for being part of the wrong nationality and not immediately assimilating into anarchism. and when you think of things this way, that previous antiwar movements in the United States <em>are</em> United States antiwar movements, you start to really see how "the left we have" being "non-Marxist" is a lot more than a color swatch, and in practice means that when United States people practice "revolutionary defeatism" the population is pursuing a totally different transition out of capitalism than what any Marxist strategy looks like assuming it pursues one at all. if you want people to work with "the left we have" you have to get comfortable with the concept of a [[Term:charcoal transition\|charcoal transition]] and that you might have to toss every bit of your Marxist theory out the window and learn a big stack of anarchist or [[:Category:Existentialist-Structuralist tradition ontology\|Existentialist]] theory, that the United States might get <em>all the way through transition to a new system</em> before Marxism ever begins to apply.<br />
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	this motif.... it should make me mad but it's actually very funny to me. it is highly nonsensical on the inside, but the outward shape of it is so bizarrely similar to statements in Marxism-Leninism that I am possessed to imagine it as if it was some weird alternate-dimension parallel to Communism which outright spawns vanguard parties and workers' states all based in moral consciousness as opposed to class consciousness		this motif.... it should make me mad but it's actually very funny to me. it is highly nonsensical on the inside, but the outward shape of it is so bizarrely similar to statements in Marxism-Leninism that I am possessed to imagine it as if it was some weird alternate-dimension parallel to Communism which outright spawns vanguard parties and workers' states all based in moral consciousness as opposed to class consciousness

	</ol>		</li></ol>

			== Undertale as Marxist narrative ==
			<ol class="hue clean">

			<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="MX onto ML" value="618" data-dimension="S2">Undertale is evidence people wish Bolshevism was possible / The great popularity of Undertale is evidence First-World people wish Bolshevism was possible although nobody has any idea how or if it is -> there's no contradiction in saying both the statements "Undertale is based on Idealist movements" and "you write something like Undertale when people wish Bolshevism was possible but nobody has any idea if it is".<br />
			this one eats at me. it's so hard to not just shout from the rooftops "Undertale is a narrative about forming a society that holds all people instead of an empire and the material conditions resemble North Korea and that logically leads to Bolshevism". but I know people will think I'm weird. so... when I get "Auldernet" finished in some capacity. only then.

			{{li\|I=S2/IV\|tradition=\|Q=618}}Deltarune is a pro-Trotskyist narrative -> I know this sounds completely off the wall but I can explain.<br/>
			Deltarune expands on the concepts in Undertale of staying inside the barrier or breaking the barrier. each of the Dark Worlds presents a false choice that you should stay inside them instead of breaking out and thus destroying them, and in Chapter 5, there is an interesting new theme brought up that Dark Worlds are in competition with each other for existence because a limited number can exist. and, well... I discovered that if you drop "Stalin" and "Trotsky" into Undertale's narrative of a society of monsters sealed inside a barrier that it is hilarious how well that reading actually fits across both Undertale and Deltarune, especially as Deltarune goes on and develops everything more and more. realistically Dark Worlds loosely represent the way capitalism has trapped everyone in competing islands that perceive reality separately and the solution — delivered by Ralsei at the beginning, not something I made up — is to close all the Dark Worlds and get rid of that competition between different distorted fantasies because reality (the world, the universe) is the only thing shared by everybody without inherent competition.<br/>
			I had this AU where 'Undertale is an unrealistic fantasy because feudalism ended and there's Communism in real life over only half the world', and I thought it was a funny little twisting of the narratives that subjectively improved them. I thought saying there was Marxism in Deltarune was only a funny joke. But then... like, all the imagery from Deltarune I was using to make that 'point' weirdly turned out to be used in a way actually not too different from what I was doing, I just made all the patterns a bit more explicit through a 'historical example' while Deltarune chose to be more vague and poetic. and then I was like. hey wait. is Deltarune {{em\|actually}} Trotskyist. what the {{censor\|fuck}}. the only situation in which you'd expect this to be true is if Trotskyism is correct. there's like no other way. Toby is exactly from the group of people that would come up with all the most boring bourgeois interpretations of stories so there's no way he'd think of it if it wasn't true. a "perfect" Marxism will be reached by everybody that cares about reality. there are only certain groups of people that think of imperfect Marxisms, while everyone else blocks Marxism out of their mind. ('Stalinism is a distortion of reality, but it's {{em\|my}} distortion, {{censor\|dammit}}!') and I mean. my research dragged me into Trotskyism with all its might the day before, so I'm not surprised, but I am very not ready for this.

			</li></ol>

	== Related ==		== Related ==
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=64,43\|Q2=64,43\|h4= Susie's dialectic }} ({{film\|Deltarune}}) / Edgeworth's dialectic / White Diamond's dialectic ({{film\|Steven Universe}}) / ({{9k\|RD/Q64,43}})		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=64,43\|Q2=64,43\|h4= Susie's dialectic }} ({{film\|Deltarune}}) / Edgeworth's dialectic / White Diamond's dialectic ({{film\|Steven Universe}}) / ({{9k\|RD/Q64,43}})

	</ol>		</li></ol>

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