Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q618-BandasManyReasons - Revision history

Reversedragon: Stalinists were not Marxists

2026-05-28T01:58:11Z

Stalinists were not Marxists

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:58, 28 May 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Trotsky cannot mark the character of the Soviet Union "not yet decided by history" -> North says, the capacity for the Soviet Union to be defeated and revert would be more obvious if you looked at the overall world system; Lenin knew the chances of having much success with socialism-in-one-country were not good and the chances inside a large group of red/orange countries that formed soon were better. this analysis gets lost because of the way people divide Stalin's Marxism from Trotskyism, when in reality Lenin had a moment of standing in the middle where he at least considered Trotskyism. (I know there are early works by Lenin that sound just like Trotskyism, but what's unclear here is why or how he apparently changed his mind in later works.) from North's point of view everyone got lost inside the fate of that one country while the real question was always how you'd get through revolutions in multiple countries. hence Banda is lost, Banda's model isn't dialectical because he is considering the individual country as an atomically separate thing from the larger process. while the minimum correction is to consider the process of forming the Third International versus the Fourth International, not one red region versus one orange region. this is... an oddly specific criticism but not wrong. people really {{em\|don't}} talk about the Soviet Union as part of the Third International enough. that is one of the strongest arguments for it being 'just as good as Trotskyism', that there can still be a comintern, so, yes.		{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Trotsky cannot mark the character of the Soviet Union "not yet decided by history" -> North says, the capacity for the Soviet Union to be defeated and revert would be more obvious if you looked at the overall world system; Lenin knew the chances of having much success with socialism-in-one-country were not good and the chances inside a large group of red/orange countries that formed soon were better. this analysis gets lost because of the way people divide Stalin's Marxism from Trotskyism, when in reality Lenin had a moment of standing in the middle where he at least considered Trotskyism. (I know there are early works by Lenin that sound just like Trotskyism, but what's unclear here is why or how he apparently changed his mind in later works.) from North's point of view everyone got lost inside the fate of that one country while the real question was always how you'd get through revolutions in multiple countries. hence Banda is lost, Banda's model isn't dialectical because he is considering the individual country as an atomically separate thing from the larger process. while the minimum correction is to consider the process of forming the Third International versus the Fourth International, not one red region versus one orange region. this is... an oddly specific criticism but not wrong. people really {{em\|don't}} talk about the Soviet Union as part of the Third International enough. that is one of the strongest arguments for it being 'just as good as Trotskyism', that there can still be a comintern, so, yes.

			{{li\|I=S2/IV\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Trotsky cannot mark the character of the Soviet Union "not yet decided by history" -> because I can't link things the reverse way: I brought North's idea up on [[E:Q4002\|Q4002/LB]] "Stalinists were not Marxists".

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Reversedragon: Trotsky cannot mark the character of the Soviet Union "not yet decided by history"

2026-05-27T10:17:23Z

Trotsky cannot mark the character of the Soviet Union "not yet decided by history"

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-{{li|start=y|I=S2/ML|Q=618|Q2=618|h4= Trotskyist method brings disintegration }} / Trotskyist policies bring disintegration / There is a direct causative connection between the impasse and disintegration of Trotskyism and the method and policies advocated by Trotsky (Banda 1986)  ->  yeah, that is the "Stalinist" position. Banda is a little hyperbolic in how he goes about all this in that he isn't taking in the whole picture of the totality of Trotskyist groups in the world slowly and painfully filtering into a Fourth International. when you look at it that way, it's not that Trotskyism is unfalsifiable or impossible, if anything it's simply that it settles onto the actually-good methods too slowly.
+{{li|start=y|I=S2/ML|Q=618|Q2=618|h4= Trotskyist method brings disintegration }} / Trotskyist policies bring disintegration / There is a direct causative connection between the impasse and disintegration of Trotskyism and the method and policies advocated by Trotsky (Banda 1986) [https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/heritage/33.html]  ->  yeah, that is the "Stalinist" position. Banda is a little hyperbolic in how he goes about all this in that he isn't taking in the whole picture of the totality of Trotskyist groups in the world slowly and painfully filtering into a Fourth International. when you look at it that way, it's not that Trotskyism is unfalsifiable or impossible, if anything it's simply that it settles onto the actually-good methods too slowly.
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Reversedragon: Trotskyist method brings disintegration

2026-05-27T00:16:41Z

Trotskyist method brings disintegration

← Older revision		Revision as of 00:16, 27 May 2026
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	== Motifs or claims (Banda) ==		== Motifs or claims (Banda) ==
	~~<!--~~
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">
	</li></ol~~> --~~>
			{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/ML\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= Trotskyist method brings disintegration }} / Trotskyist policies bring disintegration / There is a direct causative connection between the impasse and disintegration of Trotskyism and the method and policies advocated by Trotsky (Banda 1986) -> yeah, that is the "Stalinist" position. Banda is a little hyperbolic in how he goes about all this in that he isn't taking in the whole picture of the totality of Trotskyist groups in the world slowly and painfully filtering into a Fourth International. when you look at it that way, it's not that Trotskyism is unfalsifiable or impossible, if anything it's simply that it settles onto the actually-good methods too slowly.

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	== Related ==		== Related ==
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	== Wavebuilder combinations ==		== Wavebuilder combinations ==
	<dl class="wikitable hue data_wavebuild three">		<dl class="wikitable hue data_wavebuild three">
	{{WaveBuild\| -- \| -- \| -- }} -- en: Along With, Produces ... ~~Deng Xiaoping Thought~~ ... --		{{WaveBuild\| -- \| -- \| -- }} -- en: Along With, Produces ... asdfsdf ... --
	{{E:Q618/DX\|~~Yaroshenkoism is a postcolonial theory~~}}		{{E:Q618/DX\|asdfsdf}}
	</dl>		</dl>
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	</ol>		</ol>
	-->		-->
	* ~~(none)~~		* IV / Trotskyism
			* ML / Stalin's Marxism
			* IV onto ML

	<!--== Full title for bookmarks (optional) ==		<!--== Full title for bookmarks (optional) ==

ICFIReporters: copy markup from BandasManyReasons

2026-05-27T00:14:23Z

copy markup from BandasManyReasons

New page

{{NextNineThousand|PPPA=Banda's 27 reasons|User=RD|E=Q618|Contents=y}}
== Main entries ==
{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean">

{{li|start=y|I=Z1/IV/ML|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{article|27 Reasons Why the International Committee Should Be Buried Forthwith and the Fourth International Built}} (Banda 1986) [https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/heritage/33.html] [https://www.marxists.org/history/etol//newspape/sn/Fourth%20Internationalist%20inc%20Socialist%20Newsletter%20Special%20Bulletin%20Feb%2086.pdf] -> (note: I can't find the original article right now, but these articles date it to 1986)

{{li|I=Z1/IV|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{book|The heritage we defend}} (North 2018) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2018/06/21/heri-j21.html]

{{li|I=Z1/IV|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{article|M. Banda embraces Stalinism}} (North) [https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/heritage/33.html] [https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/heritage/34.html] [https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/heritage/35.html]

</li></ol>

== Motifs or claims (Banda) ==


== Related ==




== Ideologies or fields ==

* (none)


[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]]