Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q618-HowForestsThinkKohn - Revision history

Reversedragon: indigenous biases

2026-05-09T19:04:32Z

indigenous biases

← Older revision		Revision as of 19:04, 9 May 2026
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	{{li\|I=S1/A\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=241}}We live in a gift economy with the future selves we might come to be -> maybe I just don't understand what a gift economy is but that does not sound right to me. it feels to me like it trivializes labor and how utterly, hopelessly impossible it can feel to actually finish what you want to leave for your future self. especially if it's something you "have to do to get to another level of things" or "need to do to grow", but even if it's something you "want to do", just trying to "leave that gift" and end up somewhere better the next day can take everything out of you including all your happiness, and you can fail at it and not have finished, and just feel like, I'm in pain, I can't finish this thing I have to do, what am I going to do. and just trying to develop and function can almost feel as if it's an illness you wish you could get better from for how much it hurts.<br/>		{{li\|I=S1/A\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=241}}We live in a gift economy with the future selves we might come to be -> maybe I just don't understand what a gift economy is but that does not sound right to me. it feels to me like it trivializes labor and how utterly, hopelessly impossible it can feel to actually finish what you want to leave for your future self. especially if it's something you "have to do to get to another level of things" or "need to do to grow", but even if it's something you "want to do", just trying to "leave that gift" and end up somewhere better the next day can take everything out of you including all your happiness, and you can fail at it and not have finished, and just feel like, I'm in pain, I can't finish this thing I have to do, what am I going to do. and just trying to develop and function can almost feel as if it's an illness you wish you could get better from for how much it hurts.<br/>
	I think part of it is that there is a bias here toward defining interactions with other people as interactions with your future self. when.... those aren't equivalent. it really is possible for the thing you give yourself and the thing that an interaction with someone else gives yourself to be different things.		I think part of it is that there is a bias here toward defining interactions with other people as interactions with your future self. when.... those aren't equivalent. it really is possible for the thing you give yourself and the thing that an interaction with someone else gives yourself to be different things.

			</li></ol>

			== Subjective themes ==
			<ol class="hue clean terse">

			{{li\|I=S1/A\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=}}indigenous biases / Tribal populations cannot be biased -> the motif of presenting the experience of tribal or indigenous populations as a universal human experience or implying it is when also showing cases where it clearly isn't.<br/>
			modern anarchism is positively riddled with these and it never wants to admit it, often because "it couldn't possibly do any harm". well, that isn't <del>true</del> [[E:Truth corresponds to reality\|accurate]]. indigenous biases are unlikely to lead to some sort of imperial control over other populations, but that isn't the only form of harm that exists. there can also be harm done just by, out of any particular context of where it came from or what countable culture it came from, showing people the wrong model of something. I've had to sit through all sorts of instances of Third-World countries presenting wrong models of LGBT+ people and occasionally wrong models of U.S. ethnic minority movements and dismissing these things as "unimportant" just because "they're a distraction from solving imperialism" — all of it leads to First World minorities kicking up a backlash against Third World countries as 'immoral' and {{em\|becoming more imperialist}}. so I'm not going to let you go around presenting wrong models of Lived Experience, history, or time, because I know where wrong models of things lead. I'm not sure {{em\|what}} demographic subpopulation of people is going to get furious after you overwrite First World models of various things with uniquely indigenous ones and they don't fit current circumstances but there {{em\|is}} going to be somebody.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	<ol class="hue clean terse">		<ol class="hue clean terse">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4=}}{{book\|Animal Farm}} led to {{film\|Zootopia}} / {{book\|Animal Farm}} and {{film\|Zootopia}} take place in the same universe -> unlikely to be literally true, but it's a very interesting thought experiment if you imagine {{book\|Animal Farm}} happened first and {{film\|Zootopia}} takes place hundreds of years later after some sort of color revolution scenario where animals that had once lived wild and then lived as livestock in some cases later evolved into Liberal-republicanism, "properly" worshiping police officers as the defenders of ethics rather than giving in to the temptation to make everyone workers in order to get rid of conflicts and put a big scary The Central Government in charge of building a new social structure.		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4= {{book\|Animal Farm}} led to {{film\|Zootopia}} }} / {{book\|Animal Farm}} and {{film\|Zootopia}} take place in the same universe -> unlikely to be literally true, but it's a very interesting thought experiment if you imagine {{book\|Animal Farm}} happened first and {{film\|Zootopia}} takes place hundreds of years later after some sort of color revolution scenario where animals that had once lived wild and then lived as livestock in some cases later evolved into Liberal-republicanism, "properly" worshiping police officers as the defenders of ethics rather than giving in to the temptation to make everyone workers in order to get rid of conflicts and put a big scary The Central Government in charge of building a new social structure.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: relata ; every footnote (well, I aimed for every footnote and got about half of them)

2026-05-09T19:01:39Z

relata ; every footnote (well, I aimed for every footnote and got about half of them)

@@ Line 20: / Line 20: @@
 {{li|start=y|I=S1/HAS|Q=618|Q2=618|ww=Q618-CA|pp=1}}it is hard to speak of what it was, dense and difficult / forest dense and powerful [?]  ->  apparent purpose of the text: to take the indescribable awe of South American forests and make them describable
-{{li|I=S2/HAS|Q=618|Q2=618|ww=Q618-CA|pp=229}}an anthropology beyond the human / an anthropology of life  ->  this is actually explained in the footnotes as basically a product of the constraints of university research. "anthropology" refers to the author going to South America to do anthropology, but doesn't necessarily refer to the content of the current text as "anthropological studies"; "beyond the human" refers an approach which discusses other subjects than humans but does not abandon the study of humans. so, there are still subtle problems with this book, but they aren't as bad as the title made it sound like they were. the logical problems largely come from the constraints of universities artificially dividing research into specific fields and making experts be experts on highly specific fields they then become forced to inappropriately interpret other fields through.
+{{li|I=S1/HAS|Q=618|Q2=618|ww=Q618-CA|pp=229}}an anthropology beyond the human / an anthropology of life  ->  this is actually explained in the footnotes as basically a product of the constraints of university research. "anthropology" refers to the author going to South America to do anthropology, but doesn't necessarily refer to the content of the current text as "anthropological studies"; "beyond the human" refers an approach which discusses other subjects than humans but does not abandon the study of humans. so, there are still subtle problems with this book, but they aren't as bad as the title made it sound like they were. the logical problems largely come from the constraints of universities artificially dividing research into specific fields and making experts be experts on highly specific fields they then become forced to inappropriately interpret other fields through.
 {{li|I=S2/HAS|Q=618|Q2=618|ww=Q618-CA|pp=1}}Jaguars identify thinking people / Jaguars understand a distinction between living minds and inanimate objects; this is to vaguely imply that predatory animals practice respect or empathy for thinking Subjects of other species  ->  within the first few sentences of the book, you can see the final conclusion being carefully smuggled in behind claims that look smaller but due to their rhetorical purpose are actually bigger claims than they appear to be.
@@ Line 29: / Line 31: @@
 {{li|I=S2/STM|Q=618|Q2=618}}Jaguars understand a distinction between living animals and dead animals  ->  most people probably wouldn't dispute this much.
 {{li|I=S2/HAS|Q=618|Q2=618|ww=Q618-CA|pp=229}}Looking outside the boundaries of anthropology requires not just looking at nonhuman beings to understand humans, but looking beyond life  ->  the first part of this makes a lot of sense at least on its own, but as for the second part, you lost me.
 {{li|I=S2/ES/ML|Q=618|Q2=618|ww=Q618-CA|pp=8}}Our social theory — whether humanist or posthumanist, structuralist or poststructuralist — conflates representation with language  ->  lol. I was flipping through trying to find a footnote and then my eyes stopped on this splendidly backhandedly-true statement. it sure does! I can't disagree.
 </li></ol>
@@ Line 55: / Line 96: @@
 {{li|start=y
      |I=S1/A|Q=53,19|Q2=53,19}}{{TTS|A|A}} / [[EC:9k/RD/Q53,19|secular animism]]
 {{li|I=S1/HAS|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|HAS|Hass}} / humanities, arts, and social sciences
 {{li|I=S1/HAS|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|HAS|Hass}} / ethics
 {{li|I=S1/Fy |Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|Fy|Fantasy}} / speculative fiction
-{{li|I=S1/STM|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|STM|Stem}} / ecology
+{{li|I=Z1/STM|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|STM|Stem}} / ecology
-{{li|I=S1/STM|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|STM|Stem}} / evolutionary biology
+{{li|I=Z1/STM|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{TTS|STM|Stem}} / evolutionary biology
 </li></ol>

Reversedragon: an anthropology beyond the human

2026-05-09T08:26:22Z

an anthropology beyond the human

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:26, 9 May 2026
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}it is hard to speak of what it was, dense and difficult / forest dense and powerful [?] -> apparent purpose of the text: to take the indescribable awe of South American forests and make them describable		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}it is hard to speak of what it was, dense and difficult / forest dense and powerful [?] -> apparent purpose of the text: to take the indescribable awe of South American forests and make them describable

			{{li\|I=S2/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=229}}an anthropology beyond the human / an anthropology of life -> this is actually explained in the footnotes as basically a product of the constraints of university research. "anthropology" refers to the author going to South America to do anthropology, but doesn't necessarily refer to the content of the current text as "anthropological studies"; "beyond the human" refers an approach which discusses other subjects than humans but does not abandon the study of humans. so, there are still subtle problems with this book, but they aren't as bad as the title made it sound like they were. the logical problems largely come from the constraints of universities artificially dividing research into specific fields and making experts be experts on highly specific fields they then become forced to inappropriately interpret other fields through.

	{{li\|I=S2/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}Jaguars identify thinking people / Jaguars understand a distinction between living minds and inanimate objects; this is to vaguely imply that predatory animals practice respect or empathy for thinking Subjects of other species -> within the first few sentences of the book, you can see the final conclusion being carefully smuggled in behind claims that look smaller but due to their rhetorical purpose are actually bigger claims than they appear to be.		{{li\|I=S2/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}Jaguars identify thinking people / Jaguars understand a distinction between living minds and inanimate objects; this is to vaguely imply that predatory animals practice respect or empathy for thinking Subjects of other species -> within the first few sentences of the book, you can see the final conclusion being carefully smuggled in behind claims that look smaller but due to their rhetorical purpose are actually bigger claims than they appear to be.
Line 27:		Line 29:

	{{li\|I=S2/STM\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Jaguars understand a distinction between living animals and dead animals -> most people probably wouldn't dispute this much.		{{li\|I=S2/STM\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Jaguars understand a distinction between living animals and dead animals -> most people probably wouldn't dispute this much.

			{{li\|I=S2/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=229}}Looking outside the boundaries of anthropology requires not just looking at nonhuman beings to understand humans, but looking beyond life -> the first part of this makes a lot of sense at least on its own, but as for the second part, you lost me.

			{{li\|I=S2/ES/ML\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=8}}Our social theory — whether humanist or posthumanist, structuralist or poststructuralist — conflates representation with language -> lol. I was flipping through trying to find a footnote and then my eyes stopped on this splendidly backhandedly-true statement. it sure does! I can't disagree.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Jaguars identify thinking people / Animal Farm and Zootopia take place in the same universe

2026-05-09T08:03:10Z

Jaguars identify thinking people / Animal Farm and Zootopia take place in the same universe

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:03, 9 May 2026
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}it is hard to speak of what it was, dense and difficult / forest dense and powerful [?] -> apparent purpose of the text: to take the indescribable awe of South American forests and make them describable		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}it is hard to speak of what it was, dense and difficult / forest dense and powerful [?] -> apparent purpose of the text: to take the indescribable awe of South American forests and make them describable

	{{li\|I=S2/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}Jaguars understand a distinction between living minds and inanimate objects; this is to vaguely imply that predatory animals practice respect or empathy for thinking ~~[[E:The Subject (Existentialism)\|~~Subjects]] of other species -> within the first few sentences of the book, you can see the final conclusion being carefully smuggled in behind claims that look smaller but due to their rhetorical purpose are actually bigger claims than they appear to be.		{{li\|I=S2/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}Jaguars identify thinking people / Jaguars understand a distinction between living minds and inanimate objects; this is to vaguely imply that predatory animals practice respect or empathy for thinking Subjects of other species -> within the first few sentences of the book, you can see the final conclusion being carefully smuggled in behind claims that look smaller but due to their rhetorical purpose are actually bigger claims than they appear to be.

			{{li\|I=S2/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}Jaguars identify thinking people / Jaguars understand a distinction between [[E:sapient being (science fiction)\|sapients]] and inanimate objects / When jaguars decide which animals are meat and which animals are watching them, they make this decision {{em\|because}} they first made a decision on which objects are thinking minds and which objects are not; this is to vaguely imply that predatory animals practice respect or empathy for thinking [[E:The Subject (Existentialism)\|Subjects]] of other species -><br/>
			this proposition is so... biased. it is clearly trying to get to this conclusion that animals can decide to be prejudiced or not because [[E:Human moralities are a fundamental layer of material reality\|prejudice is an inherent characteristic of the universe]]. but that doesn't make any sense, because if this proposition was really true as formulated, animals would have to be able to choose to stop eating meat ever again like in {{film\|Kimba the White Lion}}, or {{film\|Animal Farm}}. aside from the fact cats in particular cannot physically do that and be healthy, it isn't something you see them try to do either. but why not? if this proposition was the way things really worked you'd half expect that carnivores in nature actually would have decided to abolish themselves. if jaguars know that other living beings are thinking Subjects in the same way we do, then why don't they just.... stop eating meat at their own peril whether or not it brings them disease just because it's Right? they aren't deeply complex beings like humans, even despite all animals having complexity of their own, so they wouldn't lose much by sacrificing themselves as individuals if there's any chance they could have herbivores as children. human beings have gradually evolved over their existence, becoming able to digest milk or in any event noticing they can and taking advantage of it (it's notable not every population of humans has). so it's actually not so far-fetched to imagine that if predators Decided to stop eating meat you might see them evolve past that artificial constraint on them and continue to exist in a new form. so where is this entirely plausible evolutionary possibility? why hasn't it happened yet?<br/>
			I know this book is somewhat literally the result of humanities students (that was explicitly mentioned in the acknowledgements) inappropriately mining the natural world for metaphors for human society, and then presenting those as an actual ontology about ecosystems with a straight face without realizing that all metaphors are not automatically true in both directions. but I still have to grill them on the literal results of their metaphors because I think it's really interesting and instructive.

	{{li\|I=S2/STM\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Jaguars understand a distinction between living animals and dead animals -> most people probably wouldn't dispute this much.		{{li\|I=S2/STM\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Jaguars understand a distinction between living animals and dead animals -> most people probably wouldn't dispute this much.
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	== Related ==		== Related ==
	~~<!--~~ <ol class="hue clean terse">		<ol class="hue clean terse">
	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/A\|Q=~~53,19~~\|Q2=~~53,19~~\|h4= ~~secular animism~~ }} / ({{9k\|~~RD/Q53~~,19}})
	</li></ol~~> --~~>		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|h4=}}{{book\|Animal Farm}} led to {{film\|Zootopia}} / {{book\|Animal Farm}} and {{film\|Zootopia}} take place in the same universe -> unlikely to be literally true, but it's a very interesting thought experiment if you imagine {{book\|Animal Farm}} happened first and {{film\|Zootopia}} takes place hundreds of years later after some sort of color revolution scenario where animals that had once lived wild and then lived as livestock in some cases later evolved into Liberal-republicanism, "properly" worshiping police officers as the defenders of ethics rather than giving in to the temptation to make everyone workers in order to get rid of conflicts and put a big scary The Central Government in charge of building a new social structure.

			</li></ol>

	<!--		<!--
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	-->		-->
	== Ideologies or fields ==		== Ideologies or fields ==
	<ol class="hue clean terse">		<ol class="hue clean terse field_exstruct">
	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/A\|Q=53,19\|Q2=53,19}}{{TTS\|A\|~~anarchy~~}} / secular animism ({{9k\|RD/~~Q53~~,19}})		{{li\|start=y
			\|I=S1/A\|Q=53,19\|Q2=53,19}}{{TTS\|A\|A}} / [[EC:9k/RD/Q53,19\|secular animism]]
			{{li\|I=S1/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|HAS\|Hass}} / humanities, arts, and social sciences
			{{li\|I=S1/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|HAS\|Hass}} / ethics
			{{li\|I=S1/Fy \|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|Fy\|Fantasy}} / speculative fiction

			{{li\|I=S1/STM\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|STM\|Stem}} / ecology
			{{li\|I=S1/STM\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{TTS\|STM\|Stem}} / evolutionary biology

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Jaguars understand a distinction between living minds and inanimate objects

2026-05-09T06:48:39Z

Jaguars understand a distinction between living minds and inanimate objects

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:48, 9 May 2026
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	{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/A\|ww=Q618		{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/A\|ww=Q618
	\|ed=\|published=~~2013~~\|publisher=\|printed=\|ISBN= <!-- [https://isbnsearch.org/] -->		\|ed=\|published=\|publisher=\|printed=\|ISBN= <!-- [https://isbnsearch.org/] -->
	\|WQ=Q96638381\|WQe=\|rem-WQ=http://www.wikidata.org/entity/		\|WQ=Q96638381\|WQe=\|rem-WQ=http://www.wikidata.org/entity/
	\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{book\|How Forests Think: Toward an Anthropology Beyond the Human}} (2013)		\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{book\|How Forests Think: Toward an Anthropology Beyond the Human}} (2013)

			{{li\|I=Z1/A\|ww=Q618-CA
			\|ed=\|published=2013\|publisher=University of California Press\|printed=\|pages=about 282\|ISBN=
			\|WQ=Q96638381\|WQe=
			\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{book\|How Forests Think}} (2013, edition) -> University of California Press

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

	== Motifs or claims ==		== Motifs or claims ==
	~~<!--~~ <ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean field_exstruct">

			{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}it is hard to speak of what it was, dense and difficult / forest dense and powerful [?] -> apparent purpose of the text: to take the indescribable awe of South American forests and make them describable

			{{li\|I=S2/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q618-CA\|pp=1}}Jaguars understand a distinction between living minds and inanimate objects; this is to vaguely imply that predatory animals practice respect or empathy for thinking [[E:The Subject (Existentialism)\|Subjects]] of other species -> within the first few sentences of the book, you can see the final conclusion being carefully smuggled in behind claims that look smaller but due to their rhetorical purpose are actually bigger claims than they appear to be.

	{{li~~\|start=y~~\|I=S1/A\|Q=618\|Q2=618~~\|ww=Q618\|pp=~~}}		{{li\|I=S2/STM\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Jaguars understand a distinction between living animals and dead animals -> most people probably wouldn't dispute this much.

	</li></ol~~> --~~>		</li></ol>

	== Related ==		== Related ==
	<ol class="hue clean terse">		<!-- <ol class="hue clean terse">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/A\|Q=53,19\|Q2=53,19\|h4= secular animism }} / ({{9k\|RD/Q53,19}})		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/A\|Q=53,19\|Q2=53,19\|h4= secular animism }} / ({{9k\|RD/Q53,19}})
			</li></ol> -->
	</li></ol>

	<!--		<!--
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	</dl>		</dl>
	{{E:Q618/ES\|--}}		{{E:Q618/ES\|--}}

	-->		-->
	== Ideologies or fields ==		== Ideologies or fields ==
	~~<!--~~		<ol class="hue clean terse">
	<ol class="hue clean ~~compound~~">		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/A\|Q=53,19\|Q2=53,19}}{{TTS\|A\|anarchy}} / secular animism ({{9k\|RD/Q53,19}})
	{{~~HueNumber~~\|~~Q3300~~}} ~~-- en:~~ A / ~~anarchism --~~		</li></ol>
	</ol>
	~~-->~~
	* A / secular animism

	== Subpages or related scraps ==		== Subpages or related scraps ==

Reversedragon: copy markup from HowForestsThinkKohn

2026-05-09T06:27:02Z

copy markup from HowForestsThinkKohn

New page

{{NextNineThousand|PPPA=How Forests Think|User=RD|E=Q618|Contents=y}}
== Main entries ==
{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean">

{{li|start=y|I=Z1/A|ww=Q618
|ed=|published=2013|publisher=|printed=|ISBN= 
|WQ=Q96638381|WQe=|rem-WQ=http://www.wikidata.org/entity/
|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{book|How Forests Think: Toward an Anthropology Beyond the Human}} (2013)

</li></ol>

== Motifs or claims ==


== Related ==
<ol class="hue clean terse">

{{li|start=y|I=S1/A|Q=53,19|Q2=53,19|h4= secular animism }} / ({{9k|RD/Q53,19}})

</li></ol>


== Ideologies or fields ==

* A / secular animism

== Subpages or related scraps ==
=== Nickels ===
* {{nickel|text=y|YT/ShintoTruthsAboutLegendaries5-8}}


[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]]