Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q64,30 - Revision history

Reversedragon: phoenix wright stuck in lawsuit over whether trans people get to use a bathroom ; created 2026-05-31T08:15:26H

2026-06-02T01:20:57Z

phoenix wright stuck in lawsuit over whether trans people get to use a bathroom ; created 2026-05-31T08:15:26H

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:20, 2 June 2026
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	{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ML\|Q=618}}Franziska von Karma becomes Communist theorist / ({{9k\|RD/Q64,49}})		{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ML\|Q=618}}Franziska von Karma becomes Communist theorist / ({{9k\|RD/Q64,49}})

			{{li\|I=S1/DFy\|Q=618}}phoenix wright stuck in lawsuit over whether trans people get to use a bathroom -> so today I found out they closed the extra toilet at the grocery store possibly for bigoted reasons. here is my revenge<br/>
			phoenix wright gets caught in a lawsuit over whether trans people get to use a bathroom. he is like, oh god, why is this a case, there's nothing to investigate, we're just arguing about whether the thing that happened is a violation or not, what are we doing<br/>
			there's something about how practically all the court cases in the games are murder cases and in comparison this kind of case seems like such small potatoes. and yet it's somehow something millions of people across an entire country can get endlessly fired up about

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: There are two things I [Phoenix] consider inexcusable — poisoning, and betrayal

2026-05-31T01:38:15Z

There are two things I [Phoenix] consider inexcusable — poisoning, and betrayal

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:38, 31 May 2026
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	this motif is... a mixed bag. in some ways it's a good thing — it's always great to see a character re-evaluate themself. in some ways it's a little yucky because it reminds me of [[E:Fukuyama's dialectic (Liberal-republicanism)\|Fukuyama's dialectic]] but somehow applied to people. in Fukuyama's dialectic it's asserted that improvement and moderation are inherently tied together such that there's not really any such thing as change, only restoring the perfect. and here, you can almost see a nasty undertone that Edgeworth had to rethink himself because his personality was "not moderate" and "had to be moderated" while Phoenix, in being defined by authenticity and a kind of purity of character, is characterized not by actual striving for self-improvement but by inherent perfection. Franziska von Karma is obnoxious but like, as much as this isn't my favorite kind of 'character development', at the very least she did work hard to get where she is. meanwhile the game ultimately seems to knock that concept of improving through effort, and after thinking about it a while that's a little unsettling honestly. it's like Edgeworth didn't improve morally because he tried to do that — the form of effort that is relevant here and possibly more important — but because he regressed to the mean, he fell back to the Ideal. that concept is the thing that bothers me.<br/>		this motif is... a mixed bag. in some ways it's a good thing — it's always great to see a character re-evaluate themself. in some ways it's a little yucky because it reminds me of [[E:Fukuyama's dialectic (Liberal-republicanism)\|Fukuyama's dialectic]] but somehow applied to people. in Fukuyama's dialectic it's asserted that improvement and moderation are inherently tied together such that there's not really any such thing as change, only restoring the perfect. and here, you can almost see a nasty undertone that Edgeworth had to rethink himself because his personality was "not moderate" and "had to be moderated" while Phoenix, in being defined by authenticity and a kind of purity of character, is characterized not by actual striving for self-improvement but by inherent perfection. Franziska von Karma is obnoxious but like, as much as this isn't my favorite kind of 'character development', at the very least she did work hard to get where she is. meanwhile the game ultimately seems to knock that concept of improving through effort, and after thinking about it a while that's a little unsettling honestly. it's like Edgeworth didn't improve morally because he tried to do that — the form of effort that is relevant here and possibly more important — but because he regressed to the mean, he fell back to the Ideal. that concept is the thing that bothers me.<br/>
	Socratic dialectic + ?? = Edgeworth's dialectic. Fukuyama's dialectic + character development = Edgeworth's dialectic. Miles Edgeworth + authenticity (Lacanianism) = Edgeworth's dialectic. Miles Edgeworth + The unpredictability of Subjects will save the world = Edgeworth's dialectic.		Socratic dialectic + ?? = Edgeworth's dialectic. Fukuyama's dialectic + character development = Edgeworth's dialectic. Miles Edgeworth + authenticity (Lacanianism) = Edgeworth's dialectic. Miles Edgeworth + The unpredictability of Subjects will save the world = Edgeworth's dialectic.

			</li></ol>

			== Motifs (AA2) ==
			<ol class="hue clean field_horror">
			{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Trials and Tribulations [vol. 3]

			{{li\|I=S2/DFy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}There are two things I consider inexcusable — poisoning, and betrayal (Phoenix Wright, AA3) -> would this be evidence against or for Phoenix siding with the Trotskyite conspiracy? I'm not sure

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: move "anarchist attorney" entries to EC:9k/RD/Q6449

2026-05-28T22:26:59Z

move "anarchist attorney" entries to EC:9k/RD/Q6449

Show changes

Reversedragon: lawyer characters becoming Lenin

2026-05-05T12:29:26Z

lawyer characters becoming Lenin

← Older revision		Revision as of 12:29, 5 May 2026
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	I think the best place for this to start would be at the beginning, with the original two incidents. when Phoenix is a child lawyers exist and he sees the young Miles Edgeworth stand up for him, everything is the same at that point. then when he's in college he learns the law department is shutting down, or maybe it isn't shut down at that time but people are occupying buildings and there is a lot of chaos and he doesn't quite know what's going on. I don't know what Mia is doing, she might actually be defending anarchists in a court trial or something weird might be going on like that. Phoenix was originally in college for theater. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/comments/9euckp/why_did_phoenix_wright_study_art_in_college/] so he would be studying the humanities and honestly I'd realistically expect that he would run into some odd people who are absorbed in schizoanalysis or other Existentialist nonsense philosophies that behind all the spaghetti strive to promote moral progress and empathy. he's a bit conflicted because I assume based on the central themes of the original series that he is fairly logical but none of this stuff makes any sense, it's more like a weird little mystery that he can't quite piece together. (gosh, he's already become relatable.) I guess the vignette of Phoenix in college is quite literally just him trying to solve the mystery of what is going on with the law department and sort of mentally putting together a "corkboard" of everything for his own peace of mind. he runs into Mia as she is investigating the incident she is supposed to be defending, in the traditional way lawyers always do in the games for some reason. and I guess because he wants to solve this thing he like, takes up the secretary / counsel role and decides to help her? we have the dynamic of Phoenix and Maya but literally reversed. of course, I feel like for thematic consistency we have to stick to the most important rule of this AU of there being absolutely no trials. Mia thinks there is going to be a trial but the commotion continues and it gets held up and doesn't happen. anarchists level the courthouse, I don't know. the anarchists try to get rid of the police department and the detectives' involvement in things. so the two of them are having to figure out how to "defend" the anarchists in a new environment where the anarchists are sort of making all the rules now. they quickly figure out that one of the best things they can do is simply learn to parse out what people are on the anarchists' side and what people aren't, and quickly report "the wrong people" so that at any particular "venue" or event they don't get in. at the end of this story arc Phoenix looks at a campus newspaper and learns that as he is graduating the law department really will be abolished. he is stunned. he looks back at the clipping he found about the 'demon prosecutor'. he has no idea what is going to happen to this man in the coming years, but knows that whatever happens it is now his duty to be a part of it. hoping he will not have to defeat his new enemy with violence, he vows to help bring Edgeworth down.		I think the best place for this to start would be at the beginning, with the original two incidents. when Phoenix is a child lawyers exist and he sees the young Miles Edgeworth stand up for him, everything is the same at that point. then when he's in college he learns the law department is shutting down, or maybe it isn't shut down at that time but people are occupying buildings and there is a lot of chaos and he doesn't quite know what's going on. I don't know what Mia is doing, she might actually be defending anarchists in a court trial or something weird might be going on like that. Phoenix was originally in college for theater. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/comments/9euckp/why_did_phoenix_wright_study_art_in_college/] so he would be studying the humanities and honestly I'd realistically expect that he would run into some odd people who are absorbed in schizoanalysis or other Existentialist nonsense philosophies that behind all the spaghetti strive to promote moral progress and empathy. he's a bit conflicted because I assume based on the central themes of the original series that he is fairly logical but none of this stuff makes any sense, it's more like a weird little mystery that he can't quite piece together. (gosh, he's already become relatable.) I guess the vignette of Phoenix in college is quite literally just him trying to solve the mystery of what is going on with the law department and sort of mentally putting together a "corkboard" of everything for his own peace of mind. he runs into Mia as she is investigating the incident she is supposed to be defending, in the traditional way lawyers always do in the games for some reason. and I guess because he wants to solve this thing he like, takes up the secretary / counsel role and decides to help her? we have the dynamic of Phoenix and Maya but literally reversed. of course, I feel like for thematic consistency we have to stick to the most important rule of this AU of there being absolutely no trials. Mia thinks there is going to be a trial but the commotion continues and it gets held up and doesn't happen. anarchists level the courthouse, I don't know. the anarchists try to get rid of the police department and the detectives' involvement in things. so the two of them are having to figure out how to "defend" the anarchists in a new environment where the anarchists are sort of making all the rules now. they quickly figure out that one of the best things they can do is simply learn to parse out what people are on the anarchists' side and what people aren't, and quickly report "the wrong people" so that at any particular "venue" or event they don't get in. at the end of this story arc Phoenix looks at a campus newspaper and learns that as he is graduating the law department really will be abolished. he is stunned. he looks back at the clipping he found about the 'demon prosecutor'. he has no idea what is going to happen to this man in the coming years, but knows that whatever happens it is now his duty to be a part of it. hoping he will not have to defeat his new enemy with violence, he vows to help bring Edgeworth down.

	{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ML\|Q=~~618~~}}lawyer characters becoming Lenin / characters that would be lawyers becoming Communist theorists<br/>		{{li\|I=S0/Fy/ML\|Q=36,16\|Q2=3616}}class traitor from specific field (fiction) / ({{9k\|RD/Q1210}})

			{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ML\|Q=36,18\|Q2=3618}}lawyer characters becoming Lenin / characters that would be lawyers becoming Communist theorists / ({{9k\|RD/Q1210}})<br/>
	lawyer characters becoming Lenin + {{cite\|Ace Attorney}} = Franziska von Karma becomes Communist theorist.		lawyer characters becoming Lenin + {{cite\|Ace Attorney}} = Franziska von Karma becomes Communist theorist.

Reversedragon: I shouldn't brag, the motif speaks for itself / lawyer postmodernism

2026-05-05T07:14:07Z

I shouldn't brag, the motif speaks for itself / lawyer postmodernism

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:14, 5 May 2026
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	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

	== Theories ==		== Theories / subjective themes ==
	<ol class="hue clean field_horror">		<ol class="hue clean field_horror">

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	I try so hard to steelman anarchists and not present their points and concepts as just stupid if I can possibly think of a way they could make sense, but the anarchists themselves are always dropping the ball. trying to defend anarchism always feels like when Phoenix has a witness who just goes on the stand and claims they did it while Phoenix is standing there like {{i\|no! no! no! you didn't have to say that}}.		I try so hard to steelman anarchists and not present their points and concepts as just stupid if I can possibly think of a way they could make sense, but the anarchists themselves are always dropping the ball. trying to defend anarchism always feels like when Phoenix has a witness who just goes on the stand and claims they did it while Phoenix is standing there like {{i\|no! no! no! you didn't have to say that}}.

	{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ES\|Q=618}}lawyer modernism (fiction) / detective modernism; forensics department modernism (fiction) / police officer modernism (fiction; {{cite\|Zootopia}} etc.) / senator modernism (fiction; {{cite\|The West Wing}} etc.) -> the motif of creating a modernist setting in fiction but doing that specifically through the lens of occupations or trades, such that the work is very relatable to anyone who has ever experienced the occupations being depicted, but such that the work also effectively praises or defends what already is whether or not it is bad.~~<br~~/>		{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ES\|Q=618}}lawyer modernism (fiction) / detective modernism; forensics department modernism (fiction) / police officer modernism (fiction; {{cite\|Zootopia}} etc.) / senator modernism (fiction; {{cite\|The West Wing}} etc.) -> the motif of creating a modernist setting in fiction but doing that specifically through the lens of occupations or trades, such that the work is very relatable to anyone who has ever experienced the occupations being depicted, but such that the work also effectively praises or defends what already is whether or not it is bad.
	~~see. I have already put in something~~ {{em\|~~way~~}} ~~more insightful than "Ace Attorney is copaganda"~~. ~~it extends to every trade~~.
			{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ES\|Q=618}}lawyer postmodernism (fiction) -> this logically has to exist if lawyer modernism exists, but I don't really know what it would be.
			{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ES\|Q=618}}lawyer metamodernism (fiction) -> this logically has to exist too. I hate culture studies terms.<br/>
			but, when I reframed the definition of modernism maybe there would be something interesting within this one.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: lawyer modernism (fiction)

2026-05-05T07:08:54Z

lawyer modernism (fiction)

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:08, 5 May 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/ES\|Q=618}}Ace Attorney is copaganda -> so when I searched up the link I really saw somebody say the phrase 'police investigation' in a negative tone. this is just it, people have these really negative experiences with cops directly that teach them the little they know, and want to live in a world without laws, but simultaneously want to live in "a democracy" and practice nonviolence and like have the entire thing operate exactly like a Liberal republic but with the tiny change that every individual is, I dunno, magically given a shock collar that zaps them if they violate some defined list of Bad Things that Make Clusters of Minorities Unhappy. kind of like the early {{cite\|Zootopia}} concepts if the shock collars actually meant there weren't any cops.<br/>		{{li\|I=S2/ES\|Q=618}}Ace Attorney is copaganda -> so when I searched up the link I really saw somebody say the phrase 'police investigation' in a negative tone. this is just it, people have these really negative experiences with cops directly that teach them the little they know, and want to live in a world without laws, but simultaneously want to live in "a democracy" and practice nonviolence and like have the entire thing operate exactly like a Liberal republic but with the tiny change that every individual is, I dunno, magically given a shock collar that zaps them if they violate some defined list of Bad Things that Make Clusters of Minorities Unhappy. kind of like the early {{cite\|Zootopia}} concepts if the shock collars actually meant there weren't any cops.<br/>
	I try so hard to steelman anarchists and not present their points and concepts as just stupid if I can possibly think of a way they could make sense, but the anarchists themselves are always dropping the ball. trying to defend anarchism always feels like when Phoenix has a witness who just goes on the stand and claims they did it while Phoenix is standing there like {{i\|no! no! no! you didn't have to say that}}.		I try so hard to steelman anarchists and not present their points and concepts as just stupid if I can possibly think of a way they could make sense, but the anarchists themselves are always dropping the ball. trying to defend anarchism always feels like when Phoenix has a witness who just goes on the stand and claims they did it while Phoenix is standing there like {{i\|no! no! no! you didn't have to say that}}.

			{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ES\|Q=618}}lawyer modernism (fiction) / detective modernism; forensics department modernism (fiction) / police officer modernism (fiction; {{cite\|Zootopia}} etc.) / senator modernism (fiction; {{cite\|The West Wing}} etc.) -> the motif of creating a modernist setting in fiction but doing that specifically through the lens of occupations or trades, such that the work is very relatable to anyone who has ever experienced the occupations being depicted, but such that the work also effectively praises or defends what already is whether or not it is bad.<br/>
			see. I have already put in something {{em\|way}} more insightful than "Ace Attorney is copaganda". it extends to every trade.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Edgeworth's dialectic

2026-05-05T06:44:57Z

Edgeworth's dialectic

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:44, 5 May 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}One purpose of the bourgeoisie is to mediate international trade and make overseas products available locally -> it's always funny when a proposition about capitalism comes up in the middle of something not about it, but I'll take it.		{{li\|I=S2/HAS\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}One purpose of the bourgeoisie is to mediate international trade and make overseas products available locally -> it's always funny when a proposition about capitalism comes up in the middle of something not about it, but I'll take it.

	{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ES\|Q=618}}Edgeworth's dialectic -> motif examined in Ace Attorney 2. {{YouTube\|iSJP7AU1c9s\|rem=AA2 32/50}} {{YouTube\|ktUevbfqylU\|rem=AA2 50/50}} Edgeworth collides with Wright. he has a particular way of thinking which is 'a problem' to Phoenix Wright. Wright continues to push on 'in authenticity'. after the incident where somebody tried to frame Edgeworth (following inside the recurring theme of behind-the-scenes fights between the criminals and the lawyers or detectives) and the Judge(?) reminded people of his actual violations of procedure, Edgeworth leaves. when he comes back, he gives Wright some very cryptic advice about 'knowing what it means to be the defense' after he 'discovered what it means to be the prosecution'. at the end it becomes clear Edgeworth did change. as much as he still seems reluctant to say it out loud he seems to have been jarred by his encounters with Phoenix and realized there was a need to to also collide the two of them together mentally and transform himself into something else.<br/>		{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ES\|Q=618}}Edgeworth's dialectic / ({{9k\|RD/Q64,43}}) -> motif examined in Ace Attorney 2. {{YouTube\|iSJP7AU1c9s\|rem=AA2 32/50}} {{YouTube\|ktUevbfqylU\|rem=AA2 50/50}} Edgeworth collides with Wright. he has a particular way of thinking which is 'a problem' to Phoenix Wright. Wright continues to push on 'in authenticity'. after the incident where somebody tried to frame Edgeworth (following inside the recurring theme of behind-the-scenes fights between the criminals and the lawyers or detectives) and the Judge(?) reminded people of his actual violations of procedure, Edgeworth leaves. when he comes back, he gives Wright some very cryptic advice about 'knowing what it means to be the defense' after he 'discovered what it means to be the prosecution'. at the end it becomes clear Edgeworth did change. as much as he still seems reluctant to say it out loud he seems to have been jarred by his encounters with Phoenix and realized there was a need to to also collide the two of them together mentally and transform himself into something else.<br/>
	this motif is... a mixed bag. in some ways it's a good thing — it's always great to see a character re-evaluate themself. in some ways it's a little yucky because it reminds me of [[E:Fukuyama's dialectic (Liberal-republicanism)\|Fukuyama's dialectic]] but somehow applied to people. in Fukuyama's dialectic it's asserted that improvement and moderation are inherently tied together such that there's not really any such thing as change, only restoring the perfect. and here, you can almost see a nasty undertone that Edgeworth had to rethink himself because his personality was "not moderate" and "had to be moderated" while Phoenix, in being defined by authenticity and a kind of purity of character, is characterized not by actual striving for self-improvement but by inherent perfection. Franziska von Karma is obnoxious but like, as much as this isn't my favorite kind of 'character development', at the very least she did work hard to get where she is. meanwhile the game ultimately seems to knock that concept of improving through effort, and after thinking about it a while that's a little unsettling honestly. it's like Edgeworth didn't improve morally because he tried to do that — the form of effort that is relevant here and possibly more important — but because he regressed to the mean, he fell back to the Ideal. that concept is the thing that bothers me.<br/>		this motif is... a mixed bag. in some ways it's a good thing — it's always great to see a character re-evaluate themself. in some ways it's a little yucky because it reminds me of [[E:Fukuyama's dialectic (Liberal-republicanism)\|Fukuyama's dialectic]] but somehow applied to people. in Fukuyama's dialectic it's asserted that improvement and moderation are inherently tied together such that there's not really any such thing as change, only restoring the perfect. and here, you can almost see a nasty undertone that Edgeworth had to rethink himself because his personality was "not moderate" and "had to be moderated" while Phoenix, in being defined by authenticity and a kind of purity of character, is characterized not by actual striving for self-improvement but by inherent perfection. Franziska von Karma is obnoxious but like, as much as this isn't my favorite kind of 'character development', at the very least she did work hard to get where she is. meanwhile the game ultimately seems to knock that concept of improving through effort, and after thinking about it a while that's a little unsettling honestly. it's like Edgeworth didn't improve morally because he tried to do that — the form of effort that is relevant here and possibly more important — but because he regressed to the mean, he fell back to the Ideal. that concept is the thing that bothers me.<br/>
	Socratic dialectic + ?? = Edgeworth's dialectic. Fukuyama's dialectic + character development = Edgeworth's dialectic. Miles Edgeworth + authenticity (Lacanianism) = Edgeworth's dialectic. Miles Edgeworth + The unpredictability of Subjects will save the world = Edgeworth's dialectic.		Socratic dialectic + ?? = Edgeworth's dialectic. Fukuyama's dialectic + character development = Edgeworth's dialectic. Miles Edgeworth + authenticity (Lacanianism) = Edgeworth's dialectic. Miles Edgeworth + The unpredictability of Subjects will save the world = Edgeworth's dialectic.

Reversedragon: Franziska von Karma becomes Communist theorist

2026-05-05T06:34:32Z

Franziska von Karma becomes Communist theorist

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:34, 5 May 2026
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	{{ContentWarning\|Full game spoilers — Ace Attorney (#1)}}		{{ContentWarning\|Full game spoilers — Ace Attorney (#1)}}
	== Main entry ==		== Main entry ==
	{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean">		{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean field_horror">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=64,30\|Q2=6430}}{{game\|Ace Attorney}} (metaseries) -> I had no reason to add this until suddenly I was watching it just for context on 'cross-examine the parrot', and then was like, {{i\|oh wait, this game is about logic. it's not actually about real court procedure as much as it's about an abstract concept of "reason". which... makes it surprisingly relevant to a wiki about logic. ok. time to code it.}}		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=64,30\|Q2=6430}}{{game\|Ace Attorney}} (metaseries) -> I had no reason to add this until suddenly I was watching it just for context on 'cross-examine the parrot', and then was like, {{i\|oh wait, this game is about logic. it's not actually about real court procedure as much as it's about an abstract concept of "reason". which... makes it surprisingly relevant to a wiki about logic. ok. time to code it.}}
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	== Motifs ==		== Motifs ==
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean field_horror">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=64,29\|Q2=6429}}lawyer of justice -> intuitive, because it's at least vaguely what their stated purpose is.		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=64,29\|Q2=6429}}lawyer of justice -> intuitive, because it's at least vaguely what their stated purpose is.
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	== Motifs (AA2) ==		== Motifs (AA2) ==
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean field_horror">
	{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Justice For All [vol. 2]		{{li\|start=y\|I=Z1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Justice For All [vol. 2]

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	== Characters ==		== Characters ==
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean field_horror">
	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Phoenix Wright		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Phoenix Wright
	{{li\|I=S1/DFy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Miles Edgeworth -> I'll use the dark swatch because of the weird motif that came up for a bit of potraying prosecutors as horrifying killers.		{{li\|I=S1/DFy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Miles Edgeworth -> I'll use the dark swatch because of the weird motif that came up for a bit of potraying prosecutors as horrifying killers.
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	== Works ==		== Works ==
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean field_horror">
	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=64,41\|Q2=6441\|rem-E=Q64,41}}{{game\|Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney}} (2001) [vol. 1] [https://aceattorney.fandom.com/wiki/Phoenix_Wright:_Ace_Attorney]		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=64,41\|Q2=6441\|rem-E=Q64,41}}{{game\|Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney}} (2001) [vol. 1] [https://aceattorney.fandom.com/wiki/Phoenix_Wright:_Ace_Attorney]
	{{li\|I=Z1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{game\|Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Justice For All}} [vol. 2]		{{li\|I=Z1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}{{game\|Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Justice For All}} [vol. 2]
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	== Theories ==		== Theories ==
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean field_horror">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/Fy/MX\|Q=618}}{{game\|Ace Attorney}} is a series about Liberal-republicans fighting brown anarchists -> there is a really solid theme of [[E:direct oppression\|direct oppression]] running through the first game, where various people hire somebody to do harm to somebody that they think is violating the established local rules of their career or business — in effect, businesses or Artisanal practices acting like tiny governments.<br/>		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/Fy/MX\|Q=618}}{{game\|Ace Attorney}} is a series about Liberal-republicans fighting brown anarchists -> there is a really solid theme of [[E:direct oppression\|direct oppression]] running through the first game, where various people hire somebody to do harm to somebody that they think is violating the established local rules of their career or business — in effect, businesses or Artisanal practices acting like tiny governments.<br/>
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	== AUs ==		== AUs ==
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean field_horror">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/Fy/ML\|Q=618}}hold it! you call that Leninism? / Ace Attorney but in the context of a Communist party or Communist International -> I was watching these games for other reasons, and in my mind, they had nothing to do with Communism. {{em\|until}} Mia had to go and say 'once you see through one lie the whole thing falls apart'. that really got my mind gears turning because I started imagining a fictionalized version of the Moscow Trials which was in over-the-top Ace Attorney format. which is just, a vastly more historically accurate way to adapt that event than the [[E:ominous trial of doom\|ominous trial of doom]] trope you see in works like {{film\|The Twilight Zone}}; Trotsky himself is almost as weird as an Ace Attorney character, and even among the people they actually dragged in, the arguments or narratives were just about as bad as some of the witnesses give in Ace Attorney games. like, Trotskyites are giving Larry Butz level of testimony, persuade me otherwise.<br/>		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/Fy/ML\|Q=618}}hold it! you call that Leninism? / Ace Attorney but in the context of a Communist party or Communist International -> I was watching these games for other reasons, and in my mind, they had nothing to do with Communism. {{em\|until}} Mia had to go and say 'once you see through one lie the whole thing falls apart'. that really got my mind gears turning because I started imagining a fictionalized version of the Moscow Trials which was in over-the-top Ace Attorney format. which is just, a vastly more historically accurate way to adapt that event than the [[E:ominous trial of doom\|ominous trial of doom]] trope you see in works like {{film\|The Twilight Zone}}; Trotsky himself is almost as weird as an Ace Attorney character, and even among the people they actually dragged in, the arguments or narratives were just about as bad as some of the witnesses give in Ace Attorney games. like, Trotskyites are giving Larry Butz level of testimony, persuade me otherwise.<br/>
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	{{li\|I=S1/A\|Q=618}}Ace Attorney without trials / Ace Attorney but there are no lawyers -> so. I said that "Ace Attorney is copaganda" was a stupid proposition unless you find the most "ace" anarchist who actually has a decent exmat and can actually argue their points in a non-stupid way. but. as I wrote that down, I realized that if you tried to redesign the Ace Attorney universe around the constraint of what those people {{em\|apparently}} want rather than what they literally want... it would actually be a weirdly fun challenge. if we're thinking about this in terms of a hypothetical game it would definitely be difficult to draw up a set of core game mechanics that would feel appropriate to the original series while at the same time more or less rewriting everything. but in terms of just writing a story around some characters, that would probably be quite doable.<br/>		{{li\|I=S1/A\|Q=618}}Ace Attorney without trials / Ace Attorney but there are no lawyers -> so. I said that "Ace Attorney is copaganda" was a stupid proposition unless you find the most "ace" anarchist who actually has a decent exmat and can actually argue their points in a non-stupid way. but. as I wrote that down, I realized that if you tried to redesign the Ace Attorney universe around the constraint of what those people {{em\|apparently}} want rather than what they literally want... it would actually be a weirdly fun challenge. if we're thinking about this in terms of a hypothetical game it would definitely be difficult to draw up a set of core game mechanics that would feel appropriate to the original series while at the same time more or less rewriting everything. but in terms of just writing a story around some characters, that would probably be quite doable.<br/>
	I think the best place for this to start would be at the beginning, with the original two incidents. when Phoenix is a child lawyers exist and he sees the young Miles Edgeworth stand up for him, everything is the same at that point. then when he's in college he learns the law department is shutting down, or maybe it isn't shut down at that time but people are occupying buildings and there is a lot of chaos and he doesn't quite know what's going on. I don't know what Mia is doing, she might actually be defending anarchists in a court trial or something weird might be going on like that. Phoenix was originally in college for theater. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/comments/9euckp/why_did_phoenix_wright_study_art_in_college/] so he would be studying the humanities and honestly I'd realistically expect that he would run into some odd people who are absorbed in schizoanalysis or other Existentialist nonsense philosophies that behind all the spaghetti strive to promote moral progress and empathy. he's a bit conflicted because I assume based on the central themes of the original series that he is fairly logical but none of this stuff makes any sense, it's more like a weird little mystery that he can't quite piece together. (gosh, he's already become relatable.) I guess the vignette of Phoenix in college is quite literally just him trying to solve the mystery of what is going on with the law department and sort of mentally putting together a "corkboard" of everything for his own peace of mind. he runs into Mia as she is investigating the incident she is supposed to be defending, in the traditional way lawyers always do in the games for some reason. and I guess because he wants to solve this thing he like, takes up the secretary / counsel role and decides to help her? we have the dynamic of Phoenix and Maya but literally reversed. of course, I feel like for thematic consistency we have to stick to the most important rule of this AU of there being absolutely no trials. Mia thinks there is going to be a trial but the commotion continues and it gets held up and doesn't happen. anarchists level the courthouse, I don't know. the anarchists try to get rid of the police department and the detectives' involvement in things. so the two of them are having to figure out how to "defend" the anarchists in a new environment where the anarchists are sort of making all the rules now. they quickly figure out that one of the best things they can do is simply learn to parse out what people are on the anarchists' side and what people aren't, and quickly report "the wrong people" so that at any particular "venue" or event they don't get in. at the end of this story arc Phoenix looks at a campus newspaper and learns that as he is graduating the law department really will be abolished. he is stunned. he looks back at the clipping he found about the 'demon prosecutor'. he has no idea what is going to happen to this man in the coming years, but knows that whatever happens it is now his duty to be a part of it. hoping he will not have to defeat his new enemy with violence, he vows to help bring Edgeworth down.		I think the best place for this to start would be at the beginning, with the original two incidents. when Phoenix is a child lawyers exist and he sees the young Miles Edgeworth stand up for him, everything is the same at that point. then when he's in college he learns the law department is shutting down, or maybe it isn't shut down at that time but people are occupying buildings and there is a lot of chaos and he doesn't quite know what's going on. I don't know what Mia is doing, she might actually be defending anarchists in a court trial or something weird might be going on like that. Phoenix was originally in college for theater. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/comments/9euckp/why_did_phoenix_wright_study_art_in_college/] so he would be studying the humanities and honestly I'd realistically expect that he would run into some odd people who are absorbed in schizoanalysis or other Existentialist nonsense philosophies that behind all the spaghetti strive to promote moral progress and empathy. he's a bit conflicted because I assume based on the central themes of the original series that he is fairly logical but none of this stuff makes any sense, it's more like a weird little mystery that he can't quite piece together. (gosh, he's already become relatable.) I guess the vignette of Phoenix in college is quite literally just him trying to solve the mystery of what is going on with the law department and sort of mentally putting together a "corkboard" of everything for his own peace of mind. he runs into Mia as she is investigating the incident she is supposed to be defending, in the traditional way lawyers always do in the games for some reason. and I guess because he wants to solve this thing he like, takes up the secretary / counsel role and decides to help her? we have the dynamic of Phoenix and Maya but literally reversed. of course, I feel like for thematic consistency we have to stick to the most important rule of this AU of there being absolutely no trials. Mia thinks there is going to be a trial but the commotion continues and it gets held up and doesn't happen. anarchists level the courthouse, I don't know. the anarchists try to get rid of the police department and the detectives' involvement in things. so the two of them are having to figure out how to "defend" the anarchists in a new environment where the anarchists are sort of making all the rules now. they quickly figure out that one of the best things they can do is simply learn to parse out what people are on the anarchists' side and what people aren't, and quickly report "the wrong people" so that at any particular "venue" or event they don't get in. at the end of this story arc Phoenix looks at a campus newspaper and learns that as he is graduating the law department really will be abolished. he is stunned. he looks back at the clipping he found about the 'demon prosecutor'. he has no idea what is going to happen to this man in the coming years, but knows that whatever happens it is now his duty to be a part of it. hoping he will not have to defeat his new enemy with violence, he vows to help bring Edgeworth down.

			{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ML\|Q=618}}lawyer characters becoming Lenin / characters that would be lawyers becoming Communist theorists<br/>
			lawyer characters becoming Lenin + {{cite\|Ace Attorney}} = Franziska von Karma becomes Communist theorist.

			{{li\|I=S1/Fy/ML\|Q=618}}Franziska von Karma becomes Communist theorist -> yeah, no, if anybody is going to be the Stalin of this setting it's going to be her. weapon or no weapon, it's that notion of her being way too dedicated to being a prodigy at 18 and trying to be better at what she does than anyone else, and not really wanting to let anyone get in her way if she can genuinely do something better<br/>
			I didn't really like this character until I thought of this, which is just {{em\|so}} funny I can hardly explain it in full here. it's the collision of an anarchist-styled {{cite\|Ace Attorney}} timeline where The State is banned and presumably Communism is considered evil too with the notion of von Karma showing up and being totally unlikeable but possibly being good at it and challenging all the anarchists' assumptions about anything. it's quite an "animal farm" scenario to drop on them where likely none of them is going to get it right but they might or might not all be wrong and it could be that one of the subjectively most unlikeable characters in {{cite\|Ace Attorney}} becomes the best one

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Wendy Oldbag's debut is an example of Idealist reasoning

2026-05-02T01:05:31Z

Wendy Oldbag's debut is an example of Idealist reasoning

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:05, 2 May 2026
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	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=64,29\|Q2=6429}}lawyer of justice -> intuitive, because it's at least vaguely what their stated purpose is.		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=64,29\|Q2=6429}}lawyer of justice -> intuitive, because it's at least vaguely what their stated purpose is.

	{{li\|I=S1/DFy\|Q=64,37\|Q2=6437}}lawyer of injustice -> it's rarer you see {{em\|this}} in fiction and yet Homestuck catapulted the idea into popular consciousness.		{{li\|I=S1/DFy\|Q=64,37\|Q2=6437}}lawyer of injustice -> it's rarer you see {{em\|this}} in fiction and yet Homestuck catapulted the idea into popular consciousness.

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	{{li\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}narrative parallel		{{li\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}narrative parallel
	{{li\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Are narrative parallels admissible in court? ({{game\|Ace Attorney\|E=Q64,41}}; secular philosophy against religion) -> the answer should be no, but Phoenix, unbelievably, manages to use them in the only way that's acceptable.		{{li\|I=M3/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Are narrative parallels admissible in court? ({{game\|Ace Attorney\|E=Q64,41}}; secular philosophy against religion) -> the answer should be no, but Phoenix, unbelievably, manages to use them in the only way that's acceptable.

	{{li\|I=S2/Fy/IV\|Q=44,13\|Q2=4413}}See through one lie, and their whole testimony falls apart / Lies always beget more lies. See through one, and their whole testimony falls apart ({{game\|Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney}} tutorial) {{YouTube\|aha0iZQvMvY}} -> you know what joke I'm going to make.		{{li\|I=S2/Fy/IV\|Q=44,13\|Q2=4413}}See through one lie, and their whole testimony falls apart / Lies always beget more lies. See through one, and their whole testimony falls apart ({{game\|Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney}} tutorial) {{YouTube\|aha0iZQvMvY}} -> you know what joke I'm going to make.
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	{{li\|I=S1/ES\|Q=51,02\|Q2=5102\|ww=Q64,41}}The unpredictability of Subjects will save the world / you are the most unpredictable defense attorney ... I cannot deny the possibility of what you say -> at this moment Phoenix is having a 'revelation' from a ghost who should be only as helpful as he is but is an undetectable inner experience.<br/>		{{li\|I=S1/ES\|Q=51,02\|Q2=5102\|ww=Q64,41}}The unpredictability of Subjects will save the world / you are the most unpredictable defense attorney ... I cannot deny the possibility of what you say -> at this moment Phoenix is having a 'revelation' from a ghost who should be only as helpful as he is but is an undetectable inner experience.<br/>
	I'm not going to say this shouldn't be in there or deny this kind of thing makes stories more interesting, but I do have to say, we're getting into a sizable degree of unnecessary Kantianism here; the work is departing from reality on its 'realistic' society model before it departs from reality on fictional rules.		I'm not going to say this shouldn't be in there or deny this kind of thing makes stories more interesting, but I do have to say, we're getting into a sizable degree of unnecessary Kantianism here; the work is departing from reality on its 'realistic' society model before it departs from reality on fictional rules.

			{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618\|ww=Q64,41}}Wendy Oldbag's debut is an example of Idealist reasoning -> to be perfectly fair to these games, they use Idealism mostly for window dressing rather than the core logical problems of the game; the setting eschews supernatural forces (divine or magical) having a serious effect on the story and the court cases actually are built on a perhaps-somewhat-naïve Materialism. I really can't think of a moment where Idealism undermined the story or lessened it in any way and made me mad. this tiny, narrow little slice of the arts and writing would be one of the very few cases where Idealism has a positive effect on society. that said. the ways the characters are designed provide a nice window into {{em\|what Idealism actually is}}, and can be something of a teaching moment.<br/>
			Oldbag's appearance is slightly surprising. she is a roadblock. there are particular central themes set up for the case — tokusatsu shows, action, epic rivalries, feudal times and their possible vague connection to the current setting, very vague connections between Edgeworth/"Mitsurugi" and the Steel Samurai — and then Ms. Oldbag suddenly shows up. but there is a buried inherent logic to why she is there. only later into the case we see that the show being a "kids' show" is important, and Ms. Oldbag has to be there as this figurative and also literal obstacle to the kids having fun. the joke lands because it is not completely obvious, but the idea comes out of a very basic contradiction between abstract concepts that are thought to be inherently opposed which then manifest in particular material ways that "make sense" — Oldbag literally running after the boy that broke in. this is what Idealism is: the use of abstract concepts to ostensibly explain material reality when something happens in material reality and you see two labeled things collide after the fact.<br/>
			Idealism comes up in Pokémon types, where the interactions between two Pokémon are explained after the fact using inherent characteristics (Types). Idealism comes up in Deltarune, where the element system is taken less seriously allowing for weird new elements like "mouse" and "cat" but the inherent connections between two concepts give rise to elemental pairs. Idealism shows up in Ace Attorney designs where characters have particular roles in the story and then each character's design plays up particular abstract concepts to hint at these roles (the characters having strange names that clearly mean something but only slowly unfold like miniature mysteries of their own is one of the most obvious parts of this). Idealism shows up in a lot of places in different ways.<br/>
			Idealism may be "mostly" bad in that it clouds people's understanding of real-life events, but if you only want to use it as an art technique, you can learn a lot about how to create good "EarthBound logic" by unmasking various other instances of Idealism in other works.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Ace Attorney without trials

2026-05-01T13:24:16Z

Ace Attorney without trials

← Older revision		Revision as of 13:24, 1 May 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/Fy/ML\|Q=618}}hold it! you call that Leninism? -> though it's not very serious (and is not finished) [[User:RD/objection-IB/IsCanadaTrotskyist\|I have a "demonstration" of this now]]		{{li\|I=S2/Fy/ML\|Q=618}}hold it! you call that Leninism? -> though it's not very serious (and is not finished) [[User:RD/objection-IB/IsCanadaTrotskyist\|I have a "demonstration" of this now]]

			{{li\|I=S1/A\|Q=618}}Ace Attorney without trials / Ace Attorney but there are no lawyers -> so. I said that "Ace Attorney is copaganda" was a stupid proposition unless you find the most "ace" anarchist who actually has a decent exmat and can actually argue their points in a non-stupid way. but. as I wrote that down, I realized that if you tried to redesign the Ace Attorney universe around the constraint of what those people {{em\|apparently}} want rather than what they literally want... it would actually be a weirdly fun challenge. if we're thinking about this in terms of a hypothetical game it would definitely be difficult to draw up a set of core game mechanics that would feel appropriate to the original series while at the same time more or less rewriting everything. but in terms of just writing a story around some characters, that would probably be quite doable.<br/>
			I think the best place for this to start would be at the beginning, with the original two incidents. when Phoenix is a child lawyers exist and he sees the young Miles Edgeworth stand up for him, everything is the same at that point. then when he's in college he learns the law department is shutting down, or maybe it isn't shut down at that time but people are occupying buildings and there is a lot of chaos and he doesn't quite know what's going on. I don't know what Mia is doing, she might actually be defending anarchists in a court trial or something weird might be going on like that. Phoenix was originally in college for theater. [https://www.reddit.com/r/AceAttorney/comments/9euckp/why_did_phoenix_wright_study_art_in_college/] so he would be studying the humanities and honestly I'd realistically expect that he would run into some odd people who are absorbed in schizoanalysis or other Existentialist nonsense philosophies that behind all the spaghetti strive to promote moral progress and empathy. he's a bit conflicted because I assume based on the central themes of the original series that he is fairly logical but none of this stuff makes any sense, it's more like a weird little mystery that he can't quite piece together. (gosh, he's already become relatable.) I guess the vignette of Phoenix in college is quite literally just him trying to solve the mystery of what is going on with the law department and sort of mentally putting together a "corkboard" of everything for his own peace of mind. he runs into Mia as she is investigating the incident she is supposed to be defending, in the traditional way lawyers always do in the games for some reason. and I guess because he wants to solve this thing he like, takes up the secretary / counsel role and decides to help her? we have the dynamic of Phoenix and Maya but literally reversed. of course, I feel like for thematic consistency we have to stick to the most important rule of this AU of there being absolutely no trials. Mia thinks there is going to be a trial but the commotion continues and it gets held up and doesn't happen. anarchists level the courthouse, I don't know. the anarchists try to get rid of the police department and the detectives' involvement in things. so the two of them are having to figure out how to "defend" the anarchists in a new environment where the anarchists are sort of making all the rules now. they quickly figure out that one of the best things they can do is simply learn to parse out what people are on the anarchists' side and what people aren't, and quickly report "the wrong people" so that at any particular "venue" or event they don't get in. at the end of this story arc Phoenix looks at a campus newspaper and learns that as he is graduating the law department really will be abolished. he is stunned. he looks back at the clipping he found about the 'demon prosecutor'. he has no idea what is going to happen to this man in the coming years, but knows that whatever happens it is now his duty to be a part of it. hoping he will not have to defeat his new enemy with violence, he vows to help bring Edgeworth down.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>