Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q76,17 - Revision history

Reversedragon: Chapters

2026-05-26T09:55:56Z

Chapters

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:55, 26 May 2026
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	{{NextNineThousand\|PPPA=Deltarune\|User=RD\|E=Q76,17\|NoContents=y}}		{{NextNineThousand\|PPPA=Deltarune\|User=RD\|E=Q76,17\|NoContents=y}}
	== Main ~~entry~~ ==		== Main entries ==
	{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean">		{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean">
			{{li\|I=Z1/Fy\|Q=76,17\|Q2=7617}}{{game\|Deltarune\|E=Q7617}}
			</li></ol>

	{{li\|I=Z1/~~Fy\|Q~~=~~76,17\|Q2~~=~~7617}}{{game\|~~Deltarune\|E=~~Q7617}}~~		=== Chapters ===
			<ol class="hue clean">

			</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="6901" data-dimension="Z">Deltarune Chapter 1
			</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="6902" data-dimension="Z">Deltarune Chapter 2
			</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="6903" data-dimension="Z">Deltarune Chapter 3
			</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="6904" data-dimension="Z">Deltarune Chapter 4
			</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="6905" data-dimension="Z">Deltarune Chapter 5 (unreleased)
			</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="6906" data-dimension="Z">Deltarune Chapter 6 (unreleased)
			</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="6907" data-dimension="Z">Deltarune Chapter 7 (unreleased)
			</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="6908" data-dimension="S">further Deltarune chapters / Deltarune chapter 0 -> Deltarune chapters which are not listed on the chapter select screen. currently hypothetical.
			</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="6909" data-dimension="S">Deltarune chapter and save menus -> filling a slot with something slightly important.
			</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="6910" data-dimension="S">Deltarune credits sequence -> we can strongly guess there will be one looking at Undertale and the "gallery" window. whether it's at all important is the question. it might not be important at all. or there might be exactly one interesting credits presentation trope that makes it not totally useless to code here.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Deltarune's inner narrative contains a retcon

2026-05-23T05:49:35Z

Deltarune's inner narrative contains a retcon

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:49, 23 May 2026
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	<ol class="hue clean field_horror">		<ol class="hue clean field_horror">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/UTDR~~\|class=field_horror~~\|Q=66,23\|Q2=6623}}Noelle Holiday / ({{9k\|RD/Q66,23}})		{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/UTDR/DFy\|Q=66,23\|Q2=6623}}Noelle Holiday / ({{9k\|RD/Q66,23}})

	{{li\|I=S1/UTDR~~\|class=field_fantasy field_horror element_empty~~\|Q=69,12\|Q2=6912}}Dess Holiday / December Holiday / ({{9k\|RD/69,12}})		{{li\|I=S1/UTDR/DFy\|Q=69,12\|Q2=6912}}Dess Holiday / December Holiday / ({{9k\|RD/Q69,12}})

			{{li\|I=S1/UTDR/WD66\|Q=66,90\|Q2=6690}}[[E:Q6690\|The Roaring Knight]] / ({{9k\|RD/Q66,90}})

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	{{li\|I=S2/DFy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Kris was made from the Vessel {{9k\|dFRhc6fyMIw}}		{{li\|I=S2/DFy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Kris was made from the Vessel {{9k\|dFRhc6fyMIw}}

			{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|Q=64,09\|Q2=6409}}Deltarune's inner narrative contains a retcon / Deltarune's metanarrative includes its characters already having wounded, warped, or in any case {{em\|modified}} its inner narrative so that the narrative the player sees when Deltarune first boots up is already not the original narrative that may have existed before the modification; this is to imply that "Gerson" knows the inner narrative can be changed because it already has been

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Kris was made from the Vessel

2026-05-10T09:24:01Z

Kris was made from the Vessel

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:24, 10 May 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/DFy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}If the Cheshire cat is a cat that ostensibly has the power to guide you out of Wonderland, {{caps\|Image_Friend}} is a guiding cat that gives no illusions of guiding you out, and only wants to guide you deeper in; this is to imply that		{{li\|I=S2/DFy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}If the Cheshire cat is a cat that ostensibly has the power to guide you out of Wonderland, {{caps\|Image_Friend}} is a guiding cat that gives no illusions of guiding you out, and only wants to guide you deeper in; this is to imply that

			{{li\|I=S2/DFy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Kris was made from the Vessel {{9k\|dFRhc6fyMIw}}

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: trauma adventure moved to Q11,41

2026-05-07T07:11:33Z

trauma adventure moved to Q11,41

← Older revision		Revision as of 07:11, 7 May 2026
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	<ol class="hue clean compound">		<ol class="hue clean compound">
	{{HueDomain\|Q11,71}} <!-- en: Fy / urban fantasy -->		{{HueDomain\|Q11,71}} <!-- en: Fy / urban fantasy -->
	{{HueDomain\|Q11,42/TS}} <!-- (D)Fy / trauma adventures -->		{{HueDomain\|Q11,41/TS}} <!-- (D)Fy / trauma adventures -->
	{{HueDomain\|Q76,17}} <!-- UTDR / Deltarune -->		{{HueDomain\|Q76,17}} <!-- UTDR / Deltarune -->
	</ol>		</ol>

Reversedragon: Dess; Deltarune and Wonderland

2026-05-05T05:54:04Z

Dess; Deltarune and Wonderland

← Older revision		Revision as of 05:54, 5 May 2026
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	== Related games ==		== Related games ==
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

			</li><li data-qid="76,16" value="7616" class="field_fantasy" data-dimension="Z"><cite>[[Ontology:Q7616\|Undertale]]</cite>

	</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="618" data-dimension="Z">{{game\|Breath of Fire}}		</li><li class="field_fantasy" value="618" data-dimension="Z">{{game\|Breath of Fire}}

	</li><li ~~data-qid~~=~~"76~~,~~16" value~~=~~"7616"~~ class="field_fantasy~~" data-dimension~~=~~"Z"><cite>[[Ontology:Q7616~~\|~~Undertale]]<~~/~~cite>~~		</li></ol>

			== Characters ==
			<ol class="hue clean field_horror">

			{{li\|start=y\|I=S1/UTDR\|class=field_horror\|Q=66,23\|Q2=6623}}Noelle Holiday / ({{9k\|RD/Q66,23}})

			{{li\|I=S1/UTDR\|class=field_fantasy field_horror element_empty\|Q=69,12\|Q2=6912}}Dess Holiday / December Holiday / ({{9k\|RD/69,12}})

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

	{{li\|start=y~~\|I=S2/Fy\|class=field_horror\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Dess is not whole in the sense that Kris and Susie are {{YouTube\|SujMfaY8FG0}} -> probably.~~		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/Fy\|class=field_horror\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}The red heart device is not Kris' mind or spirit (is not Kris' Soul; Deltarune) {{YouTube\|SujMfaY8FG0}} -> I definitely think this is true but not in the ways Undertale works where you have to have one anyway. I think Souls are just not real in Deltarune even though they are in Undertale.

	~~{{li~~\|I=S2/Fy\|class=field_horror\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}The red heart device is not Kris' mind or spirit (is not Kris' Soul; Deltarune) {{YouTube\|SujMfaY8FG0}} -> I definitely think this is true but not in the ways Undertale works where you have to have one anyway. I think Souls are just not real in Deltarune even though they are in Undertale.

	{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|class=field_horror\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Kris' Soul was put inside Dess for Kris to be able to puppet the Knight and act out the Prophecy {{YouTube\|SujMfaY8FG0}}		{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|class=field_horror\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Kris' Soul was put inside Dess for Kris to be able to puppet the Knight and act out the Prophecy {{YouTube\|SujMfaY8FG0}}
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	{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|class=field_horror\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Rudy Holiday donated his body to create the Roaring Knight		{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|class=field_horror\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Rudy Holiday donated his body to create the Roaring Knight

	{{li\|I=S2/Fy~~\|class=field_horror~~\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}~~Dess was afraid of being trapped in a closet~~ / ~~Dess turned her bed away from the closet because, perhaps from a younger age, she had had nightmares about being trapped in darkness~~ {{~~YouTube~~\|~~xHJm9dSzKXw~~}}		{{li\|I=S1/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Deltarune and Wonderland / Deltarune and {{book\|Alice in Wonderland}}

	{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Waterfall is retelling Dess' story / Waterfall in Undertale is secretly retelling one or more incidents in Dess' backstory / There is secret foreshadowing for Deltarune hidden in Undyne's theme songs in Undertale -> this sounds unlikely until you notice it. so, in the ~~Ruins there~~ is a ~~particular theme associated with Toriel. this motif then appears again a little skewed in Undyne's theme.~~ that~~'s a slightly weird motif to be in there. you'd think it's maybe because of some stretched link from Toriel to Sans to Papyrus to Undyne. but it's not. because versions of~~ the ~~Ruins motif carry through into Battle Against a True Hero and into Gerson's theme. so what is that theme doing in the Ruins? you have~~ to ~~remember what Undyne does in the main story of Undertale — she tells~~ you about how she learned to fight from Gerson. so believe it or not that motif in her theme is actually about learning from somebody older and more experienced, and that's why it's used in the Ruins as Toriel's theme. but then you look at the Waterfall theme, which is also a slower version of ~~Undyne's theme, and in turn~~, a different version of the Ruins theme. funny enough, when you get into Hotland the Core has the same theme so it's a very central theme to Undertale. Snowdin is the only one that's weird — which is because it's a distantly-related version of Noelle's flashback theme that nobody would have known about until Deltarune but that totally existed before Undertale as evidenced by Gaster's theme also coming from it. I think Waterfall is more critical to understanding Deltarune than it would appear because the concept of Undyne learning from Gerson is written all over it, from the Waterfall theme to Undyne's main theme to Battle Against a True Hero. when you meet Gerson in Chapter 4 you visually see {{em\|~~waterfalls~~}} ~~there multiple times. and the whole time they're associated with tears and by extension Shadow Crystals ("something grew"). I think Waterfall as a whole~~ is ~~somehow telling a story of how Dess sort of terrorized Kris but also became~~ a ~~mentor figure~~ that ~~left a huge impact. if I remember right the waterfall like, goes off the edge, and Alphys was looking down it in depression? I think that was another hint~~ of what the waterfall means. Undertale is secretly about losing Dess. it keeps it very quiet so as not to trample over the unique story and combination of characters happening in Undertale. but I'm pretty sure all the background choices about the story that are not as important to the central themes are actually foreshadowing Deltarune. even Undyne running after you ~~until she collapses and is going to die feels like some weird nightmare regurgitated~~ out of Kris' mind after trying to forget Dess. having to use water to save her is interesting too... waterfall water is a healing item in Deltarune, remember. is the Underground another form of "the dark". don't forget, I'm with you in the dark, which also means the entirety of Undertale? it's gotta be. I don't know who Frisk is supposed to be but I don't know if that matters, because Asriel, Chara, Undyne, and Gerson are much more focal characters to Undertale than its main character if you're connecting it to Deltarune. I feel like Frisk might be some sort of statement that Kris believes protagonists are replaceable and you could just throw in seven or eight different people and it doesn't matter to a story built on themes and recycled memories who the protagonist is. alphys and undyne seem to have very different and opposite responses to the waterfall. the waterfall helps Undyne get back up but it just about helps alphys die. does it matter that alphys is yellow? is this telling us what yellow means? but Undyne isn't pink, she only has red accents. there actually isn't much overlap between Spamton/Jevil and Gerson that I can remember except for the freedom motif; Spamton is contrasted with Tenna, not Gerson. which is like, I see a theme of hope with Tenna and despair or suffering with Spamton. I see hope with Gerson and hope and recovery with Undyne and I see death and suffering with Alphys. which.... oh god. so Undyne is the tough one and Alphys is the quiet yellow one. they really are Susie and Noelle even though Undyne isn't pink. it's really weird that Noelle would be hinted to ~~be associated with death and despair in Undertale while in Deltarune she seems very hopeful, she seems more hopeful than Kris as long as~~ you don't try to mess with her mind. there is a sad but theatrically staged scene where the fans get sad that Mettaton is going away, and that's like Tenna having to go away when he doesn't want to but the Knight comes in and breaks him. I can't remember Mettaton having much to do with the yellow/pink hope/despair theme other than maybe like he has pink boots and he's not as depressed as Alphys but that's about it. Tenna wants everything back, the Knight says no. the Knight is on Spamton and Alphys Undertale's team of "the waterfall never ends". then Undyne Deltarune shows up unaware what she's getting herself into with the Knight. there is this thorough separation between the Knight as this horror entity and Undyne, both Undynes. Alphys Undertale hiding the monster in the basement and never showing it to Undyne is quite a bit like Undyne Deltarune facing the Knight, only it's out in the open. the Knight is conceptually the thing you find at the end of the waterfall — Deltarune actually says that. off the edge lies the end of the waterfall. the waterfall could help you, it could help you get back up, or you could go off the edge by getting close to it and like, become an Abstraction; this isn't Digital Circus but man are the metaphors just exactly the same within a couple of its episodes. I think Dess is another version of that same idea, that a broken mind creates a wildly distorted version of a monster, and there's simply maybe a bit of a literal angle to the metaphors with a literal edge or maybe a literal waterfall, definitely a literal Shadow Crystal and a literal Black Shard whatever those are. maybe it's like.... a Deltarune character is just a thin boundary around a section of Dark World that can actually be pierced, and then the character falls into shards of glass leaving a blob of darkness? that is a disturbing image. it reminds me a bit of the corruption creatures in Tunic that were the holes in the game cartridge that could destroy everything. but here it's not {{em\|that}} literal, Deltarune is more drawn on this abstract medium of creative potential or something but it's still possible to pierce all the way through it. I think there's something to the concept of post-structuralist themes in Deltarune, like Gerson casually tells you to erase the narrative so you can write a new one, but maybe Dess looked at the world and said, well if our world is ~~just one big fabricated construct maybe I can destroy it by piercing through me~~ to reach the other side where anything is possible. again kind of what Scratch did. but it didn't work quite the way she intended. the world was more material than she thought and she only successfully destroyed her body. although along with unleashing darkness she did break through the world. and maybe the Knight is gonna turn into some huge crazy world-reshaping rift in Chapter 7? god if this isn't the real game plot this is my new AU. omega Knight. that ~~would be so cool.<br/>~~		{{li\|I=S2/DFy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}If the Cheshire cat is a cat that ostensibly has the power to guide you out of Wonderland, {{caps\|Image_Friend}} is a guiding cat that gives no illusions of guiding you out, and only wants to guide you deeper in; this is to imply that
	this is one of the most coherent theories I've ever come up with for {{em\|why}} suffering would make Noelle stronger, or {{em\|why}} Kris seems to be afraid of growing and completing their 'adventure' and seems to do everything to subvert it. the Shadow Crystal bosses are trying to tempt Noelle to become a fantasy black hole apparently, or maybe Kris, the Knight is casually waiting for one of their participation before ending the world and Kris is terrified

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: subpages

2026-04-19T22:59:36Z

subpages

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:59, 19 April 2026
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	{{NextNineThousand\|PPPA=Deltarune\|User=RD\|E=Q76,17\|NoContents=y}}		{{NextNineThousand\|PPPA=Deltarune\|User=RD\|E=Q76,17\|NoContents=y}}
	== Main entry ==		== Main entry ==
	~~<noinclude>~~{{HueCSS}}~~</noinclude>~~<ol class="hue clean">		{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean">

	<li ~~data-qid~~="76,17~~" value~~="7617~~" class="field_fantasy" data-dimension~~=~~"Z"><cite>[[Ontology:~~Q7617~~\|Deltarune]]</cite>~~		{{li\|I=Z1/Fy\|Q=76,17\|Q2=7617}}{{game\|Deltarune\|E=Q7617}}

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	{{HueDomain\|Q76,17}} <!-- UTDR / Deltarune -->		{{HueDomain\|Q76,17}} <!-- UTDR / Deltarune -->
	</ol>		</ol>

			== Subpages ==

			* [[User:RD/9k/Q76,17/log]] - gameplay notes


	[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]] <!-- page ends here. TTS-unfriendly numbers incoming		[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]] <!-- page ends here. TTS-unfriendly numbers incoming
	redirects: [[User:RD/9k/Q7617]]		redirects: [[User:RD/9k/Q7617]] [[User:RD/9k/Q76,17]]
	duplication hint: copy markup from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNN\|9k/Q76,17]] -->		duplication hint: copy markup from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNN\|9k/Q76,17]] -->

Reversedragon: Reversedragon moved page User:RD/9k/Q76,17 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q76,17: Moving 9k pages to Ontology talk for search purposes

2026-04-19T22:59:07Z

Reversedragon moved page User:RD/9k/Q76,17 to Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q76,17: Moving 9k pages to Ontology talk for search purposes

← Older revision	Revision as of 22:59, 19 April 2026
(No difference)

Reversedragon: Jung described the subconscious as an ocean

2026-04-15T04:59:27Z

Jung described the subconscious as an ocean

← Older revision		Revision as of 04:59, 15 April 2026
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	== Related games ==		== Related games ==

	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

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	== Miscellaneous ==		== Miscellaneous ==

	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

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	== Struggle against the narrative ==		== Struggle against the narrative ==
			<ol class="hue clean">

			{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/ES\|Q=60,77\|Q2=6077}}Susie being herself can change the Prophecy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q6077\|9k]])

			</li></ol>

			== Psychoanalysis ==
	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

	{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/ES\|Q=~~60,77~~\|Q2=~~6077~~}}~~Susie being herself can change~~ the ~~Prophecy / ([[User:RD/9k/Q6077~~\|~~9k]])~~		{{li\|start=y\|I=S2/Aa\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Jung described the subconscious as an ocean {{YouTube\|5PiQpRUqhV8}}

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

	== Theories (26/2) ==		== Theories (26/2) ==

	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

Reversedragon: The collective unconscious in fiction is an illusion created by the fact that all the characters actually emerge from a single real mind

2026-04-05T08:24:53Z

The collective unconscious in fiction is an illusion created by the fact that all the characters actually emerge from a single real mind

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:24, 5 April 2026
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	</li><li class="field_fantasy" data-tradition="Fy" value="618" data-dimension="S">chat plays Undertale		</li><li class="field_fantasy" data-tradition="Fy" value="618" data-dimension="S">chat plays Undertale

	</li><li class="field_mdem" data-tradition="MX onto Aa / meta-Marxism onto Jungianism" value="618" data-dimension="S2">The collective unconscious in fiction is an illusion created by the fact that all the characters actually emerge from a single real mind -> I definitely would not have figured this out as easily without Deltarune. I guess any story that frames itself as a dream would have gotten me here eventually but Deltarune actually makes you ask where the Dark Worlds and all the Light World characters [[E:~~demiurge (fantasy narratives)~~\|~~equally come from~~]]~~, so it practically screams this proposition~~		</li><li class="field_mdem" data-tradition="MX onto Aa / meta-Marxism onto Jungianism" value="618" data-dimension="S2">The collective unconscious in fiction is an illusion created by the fact that all the characters actually emerge from a single real mind / ([[User:RD/9k/Q34,99\|9k]])

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: Waterfall is retelling Dess' story

2026-03-27T10:21:01Z

Waterfall is retelling Dess' story

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:21, 27 March 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|class=field_horror\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Dess was afraid of being trapped in a closet / Dess turned her bed away from the closet because, perhaps from a younger age, she had had nightmares about being trapped in darkness {{YouTube\|xHJm9dSzKXw}}		{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|class=field_horror\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Dess was afraid of being trapped in a closet / Dess turned her bed away from the closet because, perhaps from a younger age, she had had nightmares about being trapped in darkness {{YouTube\|xHJm9dSzKXw}}

			{{li\|I=S2/Fy\|Q=618\|Q2=618}}Waterfall is retelling Dess' story / Waterfall in Undertale is secretly retelling one or more incidents in Dess' backstory / There is secret foreshadowing for Deltarune hidden in Undyne's theme songs in Undertale -> this sounds unlikely until you notice it. so, in the Ruins there is a particular theme associated with Toriel. this motif then appears again a little skewed in Undyne's theme. that's a slightly weird motif to be in there. you'd think it's maybe because of some stretched link from Toriel to Sans to Papyrus to Undyne. but it's not. because versions of the Ruins motif carry through into Battle Against a True Hero and into Gerson's theme. so what is that theme doing in the Ruins? you have to remember what Undyne does in the main story of Undertale — she tells you about how she learned to fight from Gerson. so believe it or not that motif in her theme is actually about learning from somebody older and more experienced, and that's why it's used in the Ruins as Toriel's theme. but then you look at the Waterfall theme, which is also a slower version of Undyne's theme, and in turn, a different version of the Ruins theme. funny enough, when you get into Hotland the Core has the same theme so it's a very central theme to Undertale. Snowdin is the only one that's weird — which is because it's a distantly-related version of Noelle's flashback theme that nobody would have known about until Deltarune but that totally existed before Undertale as evidenced by Gaster's theme also coming from it. I think Waterfall is more critical to understanding Deltarune than it would appear because the concept of Undyne learning from Gerson is written all over it, from the Waterfall theme to Undyne's main theme to Battle Against a True Hero. when you meet Gerson in Chapter 4 you visually see {{em\|waterfalls}} there multiple times. and the whole time they're associated with tears and by extension Shadow Crystals ("something grew"). I think Waterfall as a whole is somehow telling a story of how Dess sort of terrorized Kris but also became a mentor figure that left a huge impact. if I remember right the waterfall like, goes off the edge, and Alphys was looking down it in depression? I think that was another hint of what the waterfall means. Undertale is secretly about losing Dess. it keeps it very quiet so as not to trample over the unique story and combination of characters happening in Undertale. but I'm pretty sure all the background choices about the story that are not as important to the central themes are actually foreshadowing Deltarune. even Undyne running after you until she collapses and is going to die feels like some weird nightmare regurgitated out of Kris' mind after trying to forget Dess. having to use water to save her is interesting too... waterfall water is a healing item in Deltarune, remember. is the Underground another form of "the dark". don't forget, I'm with you in the dark, which also means the entirety of Undertale? it's gotta be. I don't know who Frisk is supposed to be but I don't know if that matters, because Asriel, Chara, Undyne, and Gerson are much more focal characters to Undertale than its main character if you're connecting it to Deltarune. I feel like Frisk might be some sort of statement that Kris believes protagonists are replaceable and you could just throw in seven or eight different people and it doesn't matter to a story built on themes and recycled memories who the protagonist is. alphys and undyne seem to have very different and opposite responses to the waterfall. the waterfall helps Undyne get back up but it just about helps alphys die. does it matter that alphys is yellow? is this telling us what yellow means? but Undyne isn't pink, she only has red accents. there actually isn't much overlap between Spamton/Jevil and Gerson that I can remember except for the freedom motif; Spamton is contrasted with Tenna, not Gerson. which is like, I see a theme of hope with Tenna and despair or suffering with Spamton. I see hope with Gerson and hope and recovery with Undyne and I see death and suffering with Alphys. which.... oh god. so Undyne is the tough one and Alphys is the quiet yellow one. they really are Susie and Noelle even though Undyne isn't pink. it's really weird that Noelle would be hinted to be associated with death and despair in Undertale while in Deltarune she seems very hopeful, she seems more hopeful than Kris as long as you don't try to mess with her mind. there is a sad but theatrically staged scene where the fans get sad that Mettaton is going away, and that's like Tenna having to go away when he doesn't want to but the Knight comes in and breaks him. I can't remember Mettaton having much to do with the yellow/pink hope/despair theme other than maybe like he has pink boots and he's not as depressed as Alphys but that's about it. Tenna wants everything back, the Knight says no. the Knight is on Spamton and Alphys Undertale's team of "the waterfall never ends". then Undyne Deltarune shows up unaware what she's getting herself into with the Knight. there is this thorough separation between the Knight as this horror entity and Undyne, both Undynes. Alphys Undertale hiding the monster in the basement and never showing it to Undyne is quite a bit like Undyne Deltarune facing the Knight, only it's out in the open. the Knight is conceptually the thing you find at the end of the waterfall — Deltarune actually says that. off the edge lies the end of the waterfall. the waterfall could help you, it could help you get back up, or you could go off the edge by getting close to it and like, become an Abstraction; this isn't Digital Circus but man are the metaphors just exactly the same within a couple of its episodes. I think Dess is another version of that same idea, that a broken mind creates a wildly distorted version of a monster, and there's simply maybe a bit of a literal angle to the metaphors with a literal edge or maybe a literal waterfall, definitely a literal Shadow Crystal and a literal Black Shard whatever those are. maybe it's like.... a Deltarune character is just a thin boundary around a section of Dark World that can actually be pierced, and then the character falls into shards of glass leaving a blob of darkness? that is a disturbing image. it reminds me a bit of the corruption creatures in Tunic that were the holes in the game cartridge that could destroy everything. but here it's not {{em\|that}} literal, Deltarune is more drawn on this abstract medium of creative potential or something but it's still possible to pierce all the way through it. I think there's something to the concept of post-structuralist themes in Deltarune, like Gerson casually tells you to erase the narrative so you can write a new one, but maybe Dess looked at the world and said, well if our world is just one big fabricated construct maybe I can destroy it by piercing through me to reach the other side where anything is possible. again kind of what Scratch did. but it didn't work quite the way she intended. the world was more material than she thought and she only successfully destroyed her body. although along with unleashing darkness she did break through the world. and maybe the Knight is gonna turn into some huge crazy world-reshaping rift in Chapter 7? god if this isn't the real game plot this is my new AU. omega Knight. that would be so cool.<br/>
			this is one of the most coherent theories I've ever come up with for {{em\|why}} suffering would make Noelle stronger, or {{em\|why}} Kris seems to be afraid of growing and completing their 'adventure' and seems to do everything to subvert it. the Shadow Crystal bosses are trying to tempt Noelle to become a fantasy black hole apparently, or maybe Kris, the Knight is casually waiting for one of their participation before ending the world and Kris is terrified

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