User:RD/9k/Q33,16 - Revision history

Reversedragon: clean up Ironblood thought

2026-03-04T09:21:38Z

clean up Ironblood thought

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:21, 4 March 2026
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	{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=29,85\|Q2=2985}}Trotsky is your new hero / Trotsky is a petty-bourgeois hero, not a proletarian enemy / Socialism is stronger with the fusion of culturally-defined "socialists" into workers' movements than if each of the two stands alone (brought up in relation to theorist types such as Trotsky and Gramsci; framed as urging the theorists to not divide themselves out of the movement, so that every bourgeois progressive can then follow behind them) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1899/dec/trend.htm] / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])		{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=29,85\|Q2=2985}}Trotsky is your new hero / Trotsky is a petty-bourgeois hero, not a proletarian enemy / Socialism is stronger with the fusion of culturally-defined "socialists" into workers' movements than if each of the two stands alone (brought up in relation to theorist types such as Trotsky and Gramsci; framed as urging the theorists to not divide themselves out of the movement, so that every bourgeois progressive can then follow behind them) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1899/dec/trend.htm] / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])

	{{li\|I=S2/ML\|Q=21,49\|Q2=2149}}We must not separate all men into children of the working and peasant classes or counter-revolutionaries because there is nothing as effective at creating class traitors as living in a revolution (Che Guevara) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1960/08/19.htm] -> gosh it's like Che being Trotskyism's biggest ally is backhandedly true~~<br/>~~		{{li\|I=S2/ML\|Q=21,49\|Q2=2149}}We must not separate all men into children of the working and peasant classes or counter-revolutionaries because there is nothing as effective at creating class traitors as living in a revolution (Che Guevara) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1960/08/19.htm] / ([[User:RD/9k/Q19,63\|9k]]) -> gosh it's like Che being Trotskyism's biggest ally is backhandedly true. ...<br/>
	this just, gives me the funniest image of an Ironblood plot where Trotskyists from the USS or Mexico go to Cuba for whatever reason and they keep getting "converted" and are just like, nah I'm staying here and I'm a Third-World Marxist now, it stirs up a conspiracy theory where people think they're getting oppressed by the "Stalinists" into compromising on their values but they just like Cuba.~~<br/>~~
	~~Mexico would actually make some kind of sense because Mexico has always been a bit in crisis in the real world but presumably Cuba is not that bad in comparison~~<br/>
	Trotsky is your new hero + Che Guevara = this.		Trotsky is your new hero + Che Guevara = this.

Reversedragon: A revolutionary doctor must be surrounded by socialist transition

2026-03-04T09:09:04Z

A revolutionary doctor must be surrounded by socialist transition

← Older revision		Revision as of 09:09, 4 March 2026
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	<noinclude>{{HueCSS}}</noinclude><ol class="hue clean">		<noinclude>{{HueCSS}}</noinclude><ol class="hue clean">

	<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML, JC" data-qid="33,16" value="3316" data-dimension="S">Communist party as tuning fork / "Fidel and the mass begin to vibrate together" ([https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1965/03/man-socialism.htm "Socialism and man in Cuba"], Che Guevara) -> once I found this passage from a totally different Marxist movement, the stuff coming out of North Korea made a whole lot more sense.<br />		<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML, JC" data-qid="33,16" value="3316" data-dimension="S">Communist party as tuning fork / "Fidel and the mass begin to vibrate together" ([https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1965/03/man-socialism.htm "Socialism and man in Cuba"], Che Guevara) / revolution as tuning fork (using "revolution" to describe the combined process of Leninist movement to defend country and ongoing socialist transition; Che Guevara) -> once I found this passage from a totally different Marxist movement, the stuff coming out of North Korea made a whole lot more sense.<br />
	it seems like no matter how much you try to get human beings to think of things mathematically and scientifically they still always have these immaterial {{em\|experiences}} of loyalty or disloyalty to a particular coherent population. this immaterial bond of loyalty [[E:Some people prefer poetry to science\|comes first]] and then Marxist parties have to analyze it the best they can to try to keep it despite their own processes being based on material models rather than feelings. this leads to the strange-sounding but actually rather sensible descriptions of the Workers' Party of Korea having to reassure people that they will get to be a free nation and build a unique national culture and fulfil all of these immaterial needs that are hard to capture in the language of economics in return for the central party trying to persuade them that cooperating with Marxism and analyses of further transitions is the way to get what they want.<br />		it seems like no matter how much you try to get human beings to think of things mathematically and scientifically they still always have these immaterial {{em\|experiences}} of loyalty or disloyalty to a particular coherent population. this immaterial bond of loyalty [[E:Some people prefer poetry to science\|comes first]] and then Marxist parties have to analyze it the best they can to try to keep it despite their own processes being based on material models rather than feelings. this leads to the strange-sounding but actually rather sensible descriptions of the Workers' Party of Korea having to reassure people that they will get to be a free nation and build a unique national culture and fulfil all of these immaterial needs that are hard to capture in the language of economics in return for the central party trying to persuade them that cooperating with Marxism and analyses of further transitions is the way to get what they want.<br />
	everybody should stop making fun of North Korea, because what they say makes a whole lot more coherent sense than most postcolonial frameworks — anarchism, new racially-charged Third-World Marxism, or otherwise. certainly it's not "exciting" nor an "emotionally-compelling poetry read" that fills you with the fires of justice, but it is sensible.		everybody should stop making fun of North Korea, because what they say makes a whole lot more coherent sense than most postcolonial frameworks — anarchism, new racially-charged Third-World Marxism, or otherwise. certainly it's not "exciting" nor an "emotionally-compelling poetry read" that fills you with the fires of justice, but it is sensible.

			<li class="field_BPP" data-qid="33,16" value="3316" data-dimension="S">Communist party as tuning fork -> "incoherent ... new racially-charged Third-World Marxisms": please note that ismatu gwendolyn is an example of a theorist exempt from this accusation. I think I was talking about things like North American Maoism and the people who cite but dubiously use Frantz Fanon. not the Marxisms that are absolutely metal and are actually ready to weather disaster.<br/>
			Fanon himself might go in the mauve "actually good" category for all the little about him I know, I'm just saying I'm pretty sure people misuse him just like people wildly misuse Gramsci to claim Marxism is all about Ideas.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

			</li><li class="field_ML" data-tradition="JC" data-qid="19,55" value="1955" data-dimension="S">Juche concept / Juche idea [https://www.marxists.org/archive/kim-jong-il/works/On-The-Juche-Idea.pdf] / ([[User:RD/9k/Q19,55\|9k]])

	<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML" data-qid="33,15" value="3315" data-dimension="S2">If we separate the people, party, and Red Army, we cannot achieve any merit ... the individual cannot be happy and glorious (Ho Chi Minh) -> it's things like this that make me think there's not a lot of difference between whatever a "successful" workers' state is, North Korea, Che Guevara, and Vietnam. at a certain point they all start talking about "the tuning fork". this would seem to be one of the basic [[E:shovel dream\|shovel dreams]] of Bolshevism — if you create a party-nation, even if the rest of Bolshevism doesn't stay intact, people's attitudes really change to finding the notion of neat integration and unity between the central party and the masses and the whole thing of "society" or "culture" an intuitive thing. what Marx said about there being particular ideas that come out of particular shapes of society was spot on; there's just the problem that First World countries see the new ideas and find them totally baffling because they still can't quite imagine what society and their own conditions of life shifting would actually do to their perspective.<br/>		<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML" data-qid="33,15" value="3315" data-dimension="S2">If we separate the people, party, and Red Army, we cannot achieve any merit ... the individual cannot be happy and glorious (Ho Chi Minh) -> it's things like this that make me think there's not a lot of difference between whatever a "successful" workers' state is, North Korea, Che Guevara, and Vietnam. at a certain point they all start talking about "the tuning fork". this would seem to be one of the basic [[E:shovel dream\|shovel dreams]] of Bolshevism — if you create a party-nation, even if the rest of Bolshevism doesn't stay intact, people's attitudes really change to finding the notion of neat integration and unity between the central party and the masses and the whole thing of "society" or "culture" an intuitive thing. what Marx said about there being particular ideas that come out of particular shapes of society was spot on; there's just the problem that First World countries see the new ideas and find them totally baffling because they still can't quite imagine what society and their own conditions of life shifting would actually do to their perspective.<br/>
	said another way, the concept of a culturally-defined Communist is not as shameful as it would seem because it exists in all countries there are Communists, you always have a perception of how you are connected to a movement or workers' state and it is simply one of the most emergent layers of perception. the only difference is that within Marxist states the layer of experiencing cultural connection to the party-nation as a whole unit including average people is simply more "accurate" and less stylized to someone's individual vision of what they believe a party-nation would be like.		said another way, the concept of a culturally-defined Communist is not as shameful as it would seem because it exists in all countries there are Communists, you always have a perception of how you are connected to a movement or workers' state and it is simply one of the most emergent layers of perception. the only difference is that within Marxist states the layer of experiencing cultural connection to the party-nation as a whole unit including average people is simply more "accurate" and less stylized to someone's individual vision of what they believe a party-nation would be like.

	</li~~><li class~~=~~"field_ML" data-tradition~~=~~"JC" data-qid~~=~~"19~~,~~55" value="1955" data-dimension="S">Juche concept~~ / ~~Juche idea~~ [https://www.marxists.org/archive/~~kim-jong-il~~/~~works~~/~~On-The-Juche-Idea~~.~~pdf~~] / ~~([[User:RD/9k/Q19~~,55\|~~9k]])~~		{{li\|I=S2/ML\|Q=21,48\|Q2=2148}}A revolutionary doctor must be surrounded by socialist transition / To be a revolutionary doctor, there must be a revolution / An individual isolated doctor cannot be a revolutionary because a revolution is necessarily a movement of a whole people that all must learn [[E:revolution as tuning fork\|unity with each other]]; finding purpose as a doctor specifically through the form of individual actions of isolated people that start out separate from society must disappear (Che Guevara) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1960/08/19.htm] / In becoming a revolutionary doctor, every alienated activity that you do "basically" for others should be done with others -> Che Guevara tosses Existentialism out the window and I am so here for it. yes. use the notion of Materialism and everybody being embedded in a material social group object, and end up at this nice tuning fork thing where people find their purpose {{em\|within}} a collective sphere of community by contributing themselves to it and operating as part of it. that's sound. Marxism makes use of Materialism, Leninism transforms that into the tuning fork.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

	<li ~~class~~=~~"field_ML" data-qid~~="33,17" ~~value~~="~~3317~~" ~~data~~-~~dimension=~~"S">~~culturally-defined Communist~~		{{li\|I=S1/ML\|Q=33,17\|Q2=3317}}culturally-defined Communist

			{{li\|I=S2/MX\|Q=29,85\|Q2=2985}}Trotsky is your new hero / Trotsky is a petty-bourgeois hero, not a proletarian enemy / Socialism is stronger with the fusion of culturally-defined "socialists" into workers' movements than if each of the two stands alone (brought up in relation to theorist types such as Trotsky and Gramsci; framed as urging the theorists to not divide themselves out of the movement, so that every bourgeois progressive can then follow behind them) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1899/dec/trend.htm] / ([[User:RD/9k/Q29,84\|9k]])

			{{li\|I=S2/ML\|Q=21,49\|Q2=2149}}We must not separate all men into children of the working and peasant classes or counter-revolutionaries because there is nothing as effective at creating class traitors as living in a revolution (Che Guevara) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1960/08/19.htm] -> gosh it's like Che being Trotskyism's biggest ally is backhandedly true<br/>
			this just, gives me the funniest image of an Ironblood plot where Trotskyists from the USS or Mexico go to Cuba for whatever reason and they keep getting "converted" and are just like, nah I'm staying here and I'm a Third-World Marxist now, it stirs up a conspiracy theory where people think they're getting oppressed by the "Stalinists" into compromising on their values but they just like Cuba.<br/>
			Mexico would actually make some kind of sense because Mexico has always been a bit in crisis in the real world but presumably Cuba is not that bad in comparison<br/>
			Trotsky is your new hero + Che Guevara = this.

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>
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	== Ideology codes ==		== Ideology codes ==

	* ~~(none)~~		* ML / Communist aesthetics
			* ML / Cuban Marxism
			* ML / Vietnamese Marxism

Reversedragon: re-sort

2026-03-04T08:41:09Z

re-sort

← Older revision		Revision as of 08:41, 4 March 2026
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	~~<!--~~ == ~~Ontology entry ==~~		{{NextNineThousand\|PPPA=Communist party as tuning fork\|User=RD\|E=Q33,16\|Contents=y}}
	~~{{HueNumberPreview~~\|E=Q33,16}}		== Main entry ==
			<noinclude>{{HueCSS}}</noinclude><ol class="hue clean">
	~~-->~~== ~~Motif~~ ==

	<noinclude>{{HueCSS}}</noinclude><ol ~~start="3000"~~ class="hue clean">

	<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML, JC" data-qid="33,16" value="3316" data-dimension="S">Communist party as tuning fork / "Fidel and the mass begin to vibrate together" ([https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1965/03/man-socialism.htm "Socialism and man in Cuba"], Che Guevara) -> once I found this passage from a totally different Marxist movement, the stuff coming out of North Korea made a whole lot more sense.<br />		<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML, JC" data-qid="33,16" value="3316" data-dimension="S">Communist party as tuning fork / "Fidel and the mass begin to vibrate together" ([https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1965/03/man-socialism.htm "Socialism and man in Cuba"], Che Guevara) -> once I found this passage from a totally different Marxist movement, the stuff coming out of North Korea made a whole lot more sense.<br />
	it seems like no matter how much you try to get human beings to think of things mathematically and scientifically they still always have these immaterial {{em\|experiences}} of loyalty or disloyalty to a particular coherent population. this immaterial bond of loyalty [[E:Some people prefer poetry to science\|comes first]] and then Marxist parties have to analyze it the best they can to try to keep it despite their own processes being based on material models rather than feelings. this leads to the strange-sounding but actually rather sensible descriptions of the Workers' Party of Korea having to reassure people that they will get to be a free nation and build a unique national culture and fulfil all of these immaterial needs that are hard to capture in the language of economics in return for the central party trying to persuade them that cooperating with Marxism and analyses of further transitions is the way to get what they want.<br />		it seems like no matter how much you try to get human beings to think of things mathematically and scientifically they still always have these immaterial {{em\|experiences}} of loyalty or disloyalty to a particular coherent population. this immaterial bond of loyalty [[E:Some people prefer poetry to science\|comes first]] and then Marxist parties have to analyze it the best they can to try to keep it despite their own processes being based on material models rather than feelings. this leads to the strange-sounding but actually rather sensible descriptions of the Workers' Party of Korea having to reassure people that they will get to be a free nation and build a unique national culture and fulfil all of these immaterial needs that are hard to capture in the language of economics in return for the central party trying to persuade them that cooperating with Marxism and analyses of further transitions is the way to get what they want.<br />
	everybody should stop making fun of North Korea, because what they say makes a whole lot more coherent sense than most postcolonial frameworks — anarchism, new racially-charged Third-World Marxism, or otherwise. certainly it's not "exciting" nor an "emotionally-compelling poetry read" that fills you with the fires of justice, but it is sensible.		everybody should stop making fun of North Korea, because what they say makes a whole lot more coherent sense than most postcolonial frameworks — anarchism, new racially-charged Third-World Marxism, or otherwise. certainly it's not "exciting" nor an "emotionally-compelling poetry read" that fills you with the fires of justice, but it is sensible.

			</li></ol>

			== Tuning fork or connected whole ==

			<ol class="hue clean">

	<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML" data-qid="33,15" value="3315" data-dimension="S2">If we separate the people, party, and Red Army, we cannot achieve any merit ... the individual cannot be happy and glorious (Ho Chi Minh) -> it's things like this that make me think there's not a lot of difference between whatever a "successful" workers' state is, North Korea, Che Guevara, and Vietnam. at a certain point they all start talking about "the tuning fork". this would seem to be one of the basic [[E:shovel dream\|shovel dreams]] of Bolshevism — if you create a party-nation, even if the rest of Bolshevism doesn't stay intact, people's attitudes really change to finding the notion of neat integration and unity between the central party and the masses and the whole thing of "society" or "culture" an intuitive thing. what Marx said about there being particular ideas that come out of particular shapes of society was spot on; there's just the problem that First World countries see the new ideas and find them totally baffling because they still can't quite imagine what society and their own conditions of life shifting would actually do to their perspective.<br/>		<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML" data-qid="33,15" value="3315" data-dimension="S2">If we separate the people, party, and Red Army, we cannot achieve any merit ... the individual cannot be happy and glorious (Ho Chi Minh) -> it's things like this that make me think there's not a lot of difference between whatever a "successful" workers' state is, North Korea, Che Guevara, and Vietnam. at a certain point they all start talking about "the tuning fork". this would seem to be one of the basic [[E:shovel dream\|shovel dreams]] of Bolshevism — if you create a party-nation, even if the rest of Bolshevism doesn't stay intact, people's attitudes really change to finding the notion of neat integration and unity between the central party and the masses and the whole thing of "society" or "culture" an intuitive thing. what Marx said about there being particular ideas that come out of particular shapes of society was spot on; there's just the problem that First World countries see the new ideas and find them totally baffling because they still can't quite imagine what society and their own conditions of life shifting would actually do to their perspective.<br/>
	said another way, the concept of a culturally-defined Communist is not as shameful as it would seem because it exists in all countries there are Communists, you always have a perception of how you are connected to a movement or workers' state and it is simply one of the most emergent layers of perception. the only difference is that within Marxist states the layer of experiencing cultural connection to the party-nation as a whole unit including average people is simply more "accurate" and less stylized to someone's individual vision of what they believe a party-nation would be like.		said another way, the concept of a culturally-defined Communist is not as shameful as it would seem because it exists in all countries there are Communists, you always have a perception of how you are connected to a movement or workers' state and it is simply one of the most emergent layers of perception. the only difference is that within Marxist states the layer of experiencing cultural connection to the party-nation as a whole unit including average people is simply more "accurate" and less stylized to someone's individual vision of what they believe a party-nation would be like.

	<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="JC" data-qid="19,55" value="1955" data-dimension="S">Juche concept / Juche idea [https://www.marxists.org/archive/kim-jong-il/works/On-The-Juche-Idea.pdf] / ([[User:RD/9k/Q19,55\|9k]])		</li><li class="field_ML" data-tradition="JC" data-qid="19,55" value="1955" data-dimension="S">Juche concept / Juche idea [https://www.marxists.org/archive/kim-jong-il/works/On-The-Juche-Idea.pdf] / ([[User:RD/9k/Q19,55\|9k]])

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

	== ~~Related~~ ==		== Communist allies ==

	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">
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	[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]] ~~{{NextNineThousand\|PPPA=Communist party as tuning fork\|User=RD\|E=Q33,16}}~~ <!-- page ends here. TTS-unfriendly numbers incoming		[[Category:Next nine thousand (RD)]] <!-- page ends here. TTS-unfriendly numbers incoming
	redirects: [[User:RD/9k/Q3316]]		redirects: [[User:RD/9k/Q3316]]
	duplication hint: copy markup from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNNN\|9k/Q33,16]] -->		duplication hint: copy markup from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNNN\|9k/Q33,16]] -->

Reversedragon: Juche idea

2026-01-19T06:57:11Z

Juche idea

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:57, 19 January 2026
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	<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML" data-qid="33,15" value="3315" data-dimension="S2">If we separate the people, party, and Red Army, we cannot achieve any merit ... the individual cannot be happy and glorious (Ho Chi Minh) -> it's things like this that make me think there's not a lot of difference between whatever a "successful" workers' state is, North Korea, Che Guevara, and Vietnam. at a certain point they all start talking about "the tuning fork". this would seem to be one of the basic [[E:shovel dream\|shovel dreams]] of Bolshevism — if you create a party-nation, even if the rest of Bolshevism doesn't stay intact, people's attitudes really change to finding the notion of neat integration and unity between the central party and the masses and the whole thing of "society" or "culture" an intuitive thing. what Marx said about there being particular ideas that come out of particular shapes of society was spot on; there's just the problem that First World countries see the new ideas and find them totally baffling because they still can't quite imagine what society and their own conditions of life shifting would actually do to their perspective.<br/>		<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML" data-qid="33,15" value="3315" data-dimension="S2">If we separate the people, party, and Red Army, we cannot achieve any merit ... the individual cannot be happy and glorious (Ho Chi Minh) -> it's things like this that make me think there's not a lot of difference between whatever a "successful" workers' state is, North Korea, Che Guevara, and Vietnam. at a certain point they all start talking about "the tuning fork". this would seem to be one of the basic [[E:shovel dream\|shovel dreams]] of Bolshevism — if you create a party-nation, even if the rest of Bolshevism doesn't stay intact, people's attitudes really change to finding the notion of neat integration and unity between the central party and the masses and the whole thing of "society" or "culture" an intuitive thing. what Marx said about there being particular ideas that come out of particular shapes of society was spot on; there's just the problem that First World countries see the new ideas and find them totally baffling because they still can't quite imagine what society and their own conditions of life shifting would actually do to their perspective.<br/>
	said another way, the concept of a culturally-defined Communist is not as shameful as it would seem because it exists in all countries there are Communists, you always have a perception of how you are connected to a movement or workers' state and it is simply one of the most emergent layers of perception. the only difference is that within Marxist states the layer of experiencing cultural connection to the party-nation as a whole unit including average people is simply more "accurate" and less stylized to someone's individual vision of what they believe a party-nation would be like.		said another way, the concept of a culturally-defined Communist is not as shameful as it would seem because it exists in all countries there are Communists, you always have a perception of how you are connected to a movement or workers' state and it is simply one of the most emergent layers of perception. the only difference is that within Marxist states the layer of experiencing cultural connection to the party-nation as a whole unit including average people is simply more "accurate" and less stylized to someone's individual vision of what they believe a party-nation would be like.

			<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="JC" data-qid="19,55" value="1955" data-dimension="S">Juche concept / Juche idea [https://www.marxists.org/archive/kim-jong-il/works/On-The-Juche-Idea.pdf] / ([[User:RD/9k/Q19,55\|9k]])

	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

Reversedragon: culturally-defined Communist

2026-01-19T06:46:43Z

culturally-defined Communist

← Older revision		Revision as of 06:46, 19 January 2026
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	</li></ol>		</li></ol>

	== Related ==~~<!--~~		== Related ==

	<ol class="hue clean">		<ol class="hue clean">

	</li></ol~~> --~~>		<li class="field_ML" data-qid="33,17" value="3317" data-dimension="S">culturally-defined Communist

			</li></ol>

	== Ideology codes ==		== Ideology codes ==

Reversedragon: Reversedragon moved page User:RD/9k/Q3316 to User:RD/9k/Q33,16: Moving numbered Item to TTS-pronounceable title

2026-01-19T06:44:25Z

Reversedragon moved page User:RD/9k/Q3316 to User:RD/9k/Q33,16: Moving numbered Item to TTS-pronounceable title

← Older revision	Revision as of 06:44, 19 January 2026
(No difference)

Reversedragon: copy markup from 9k/Q28,92

2026-01-19T06:44:12Z

copy markup from 9k/Q28,92

New page

== Motif ==

<noinclude>{{HueCSS}}</noinclude><ol start="3000" class="hue clean">

<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML, JC" data-qid="33,16" value="3316" data-dimension="S">Communist party as tuning fork / "Fidel and the mass begin to vibrate together" ([https://www.marxists.org/archive/guevara/1965/03/man-socialism.htm "Socialism and man in Cuba"], Che Guevara) -> once I found this passage from a totally different Marxist movement, the stuff coming out of North Korea made a whole lot more sense.<br />
it seems like no matter how much you try to get human beings to think of things mathematically and scientifically they still always have these immaterial {{em|experiences}} of loyalty or disloyalty to a particular coherent population. this immaterial bond of loyalty [[E:Some people prefer poetry to science|comes first]] and then Marxist parties have to analyze it the best they can to try to keep it despite their own processes being based on material models rather than feelings. this leads to the strange-sounding but actually rather sensible descriptions of the Workers' Party of Korea having to reassure people that they will get to be a free nation and build a unique national culture and fulfil all of these immaterial needs that are hard to capture in the language of economics in return for the central party trying to persuade them that cooperating with Marxism and analyses of further transitions is the way to get what they want.<br />
everybody should stop making fun of North Korea, because what they say makes a whole lot more coherent sense than most postcolonial frameworks — anarchism, new racially-charged Third-World Marxism, or otherwise. certainly it's not "exciting" nor an "emotionally-compelling poetry read" that fills you with the fires of justice, but it is sensible.

<li class="field_ML" data-tradition="ML" data-qid="33,15" value="3315" data-dimension="S2">If we separate the people, party, and Red Army, we cannot achieve any merit ... the individual cannot be happy and glorious (Ho Chi Minh) -> it's things like this that make me think there's not a lot of difference between whatever a "successful" workers' state is, North Korea, Che Guevara, and Vietnam. at a certain point they all start talking about "the tuning fork". this would seem to be one of the basic [[E:shovel dream|shovel dreams]] of Bolshevism — if you create a party-nation, even if the rest of Bolshevism doesn't stay intact, people's attitudes really change to finding the notion of neat integration and unity between the central party and the masses and the whole thing of "society" or "culture" an intuitive thing. what Marx said about there being particular ideas that come out of particular shapes of society was spot on; there's just the problem that First World countries see the new ideas and find them totally baffling because they still can't quite imagine what society and their own conditions of life shifting would actually do to their perspective.<br/>
said another way, the concept of a culturally-defined Communist is not as shameful as it would seem because it exists in all countries there are Communists, you always have a perception of how you are connected to a movement or workers' state and it is simply one of the most emergent layers of perception. the only difference is that within Marxist states the layer of experiencing cultural connection to the party-nation as a whole unit including average people is simply more "accurate" and less stylized to someone's individual vision of what they believe a party-nation would be like.

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