Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q49,48: Difference between revisions

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Main entry

Tony Cliff -> I remember thinking his theory was "interesting" the first time I saw it but being really confused as to what exactly these theories are trying to achieve.

Motifs or claims

neither Washington nor Moscow / anti-imperialism, sense Cliff (sense) / world of Alert (generic)
multicapitalist opportunism / state multicapitalist opportunism -> a category of theories or party programs that says that workers should control businesses but that one-party states are not allowed to mediate that, and which in effect preserves multicapitalism, bourgeois parties, and Liberal-republicanism until the day that there are supposedly so many Trotskyists they will overwhelm Liberal-capitalist electoralism and join up again.
in a way it's a little like Bordigism but if Bordigism was even worse, like if you had it and then you took an unprincipled deviation away from it and said 'this is fine'.

Trotskyist or meta-Marxist objections

stop dragging us into the marsh (Lenin, What is to be done?) [1] [2] -> this was one of my favorite Lenin sayings a few years ago. actually it still is.
as I remember it: Lenin says there is a difference between training up in Marxism and then entering The Marsh versus entering The Marsh simply to be part of it. the ISO did not seem to understand this.

Expulsion

Revolutionaries do not include Tony Cliff / "revolutionaries (a category which does not include Cliff)" [3] -> [old information:]
~~I should expect this kind of sass in Leninist texts but the needless specificity of this one blindsided me~~
~~I mean~~ depending on your definition there are a lot of Communist parties which have hardly done anything, so, speaking really literally you might say this is true. but I think there are also a lot of theorists or organizers (some of them even good at what they do) for which "revolutionaries" isn't quite the right division, and "Communist allies" or some synonym ("fellow travelers" etc) versus non-allies would be a better division of things.
[note: there are decent reasons to believe that even by this standard Cliff was a "non-ally".]
the early stages of a Communist revolution take a lot of skill, education, and correct perception to where there are just these select few people that will actually be able to lead it and fulfill that statement that "without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement". like, a lot of the people who are actually going to carry a successful revolution aren't even revolutionaries.
Tony Cliff and the ISO [4]
ISO backing Israel (New Zealand) [5] -> before I read the article... this has to be an effect rather than a cause, doesn't it? if we're going to single out the ISO as bad there has to be some cluster of bad decisions they made before this that led up to this. the Palestine conflict is kind of the lowest common denominator of political issues that everyone who knows nothing about politics talks about, as it seems really obvious to ethicists yet is a difficult problem for anyone to actually solve through political or social theory, thus you get a big mountain of "stupid" opinions about it. so, yeah, ultimately this is a surface symptom, not the underlying problem.
Revolutionaries do not include Tony Cliff -> this is... apparently correct? okay.
Tony Cliff isn't the kind of person who defects from Trotskyism, but is instead the kind who joins his organization to center-Liberalism and insists on keeping the whole 'unholy quadrangle' together. a new and unique kind of error within 'ways to leave Trotskyism'.

fervent perfidious enemies -> I'm not sure if he ever said anything "ironic", but according to a lot of Trotskyists he kind of was one.
that's not what Liebknecht supported (Lenin) / Liebknecht's group was distributing illegal anti-war flyers and what has yours done? (sense) [6] -> I don't fully understand the historical situation in this article but I really appreciate Lenin correcting Grimm on Liebknecht's actual actions.
case of: Marx going meta.
Hiroyoshi Hayashi / Hayashi Hiroyoshi -> the Tony Cliff of Japan. he seemed to me like he might have been trying a little harder but maybe that was just me. either way his theory still did not quite make sense.
world of Alert (The Shuteyes) -> the motif of a world where people cannot rest because there are constant disruptions from some kind of larger outside civilization which behaves similarly to one of the great powers of World War II or the Cold War. ...
(given that this is a horror-adjacent book the motif quickly takes on a prescriptive character.)
Vote blue no matter who / Always show up to vote for center-Liberal candidates -> (Liberal-republican saying)
Discard blue no matter who / Always discard center-Liberal organizations -> Bordiga's rule.
Invert blue no matter who / Turn blue violet no matter who / Always apply nonpartisan Materialist analysis to center-Liberal organizations to gauge how close they are to producing workers' movements or Marxists and in what way they can be used in a nation-wide workers' movement -> this is what you should do with social-democratic parties and center-Liberalism. not just let their candidates rule you.

Ideologies or fields

IV / Trotskyism
ES / Palestine conflict
P4 / Zionism

@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
 {{NextNineThousand|PPPA=Tony Cliff|User=RD|E=Q49,48|Contents=y}}
 == Main entry ==
-{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean">
+{{HueCSS}}<ol class="hue clean  field_ML">
 {{li|start=y|I=Z1/ES|Q=49,48|Q2=4948}}Tony Cliff  ->  I remember thinking his theory was "interesting" the first time I saw it but being really confused as to what exactly these theories are trying to achieve.
+</li></ol>
+== Motifs or claims ==
+<ol class="hue clean  field_ML">
+{{li|start=y|I=S1/ES|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}neither Washington nor Moscow / anti-imperialism, sense Cliff (sense) / world of Alert (generic)
+{{li|I=S1/LR|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}multicapitalist opportunism / [[E:state capitalism (Liberal-republicanism)|state]] multicapitalist opportunism  ->  a category of theories or party programs that says that workers should control businesses but that one-party states are not allowed to mediate that, and which in effect preserves multicapitalism, bourgeois parties, and Liberal-republicanism until the day that there are supposedly so many Trotskyists they will overwhelm Liberal-capitalist electoralism and join up again.<br/>
+in a way it's a little like Bordigism but if Bordigism was even worse, like if you had it and then you took an unprincipled deviation away from it and said 'this is fine'.
+</li></ol>
+=== Trotskyist or meta-Marxist objections ===
+<ol class="hue clean  field_ML">
+{{li|start=y|I=S1/ML/MD|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}stop dragging us into the marsh (Lenin, {{book|What is to be done?}}) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1901/witbd/i.htm] [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/jan/31b.htm]  ->  this was one of my favorite Lenin sayings a few years ago. actually it still is.<br/>
+as I remember it: Lenin says there is a difference between training up in Marxism and then entering The Marsh versus entering The Marsh simply to be part of it. the ISO did not seem to understand this.
 </li></ol>
 == Expulsion ==
-<ol class="hue clean">
+<ol class="hue clean  field_ML">
-{{li|start=y|I=S2/IV|tradition=unknown|Q=42,79|Q2=4279}}Revolutionaries do not include Tony Cliff / "revolutionaries (a category which does not include Cliff)" [https://en.internationalism.org/wr/235_tcliff.htm]  ->  I should expect this kind of sass in Leninist texts but the needless specificity of this one blindsided me<br/>
+{{li|start=y|I=S2/JC|tradition=unknown|Q=42,79|Q2=4279}}Revolutionaries do not include Tony Cliff / "revolutionaries (a category which does not include Cliff)" [https://en.internationalism.org/wr/235_tcliff.htm]  ->  [old information:]<br/>
-I mean depending on your definition there are a lot of Communist parties which have hardly done anything, so, speaking really literally you might say this is true. but I think there are also a lot of theorists or organizers (some of them even good at what they do) for which "revolutionaries" isn't quite the right division, and "Communist allies" or some synonym ("fellow travelers" etc) versus non-allies would be a better division of things. the early stages of a Communist revolution take a lot of skill, education, and correct perception to where there are just these select few people that will actually be able to lead it and fulfill that statement that "without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement". like, a lot of the people who are actually going to carry a successful revolution aren't even revolutionaries.
+<s>I should expect this kind of sass in Leninist texts but the needless specificity of this one blindsided me</s><br/>
+<s>I mean</s> depending on your definition there are a lot of Communist parties which have hardly done anything, so, speaking really literally you might say this is true. but I think there are also a lot of theorists or organizers (some of them even good at what they do) for which "revolutionaries" isn't quite the right division, and "Communist allies" or some synonym ("fellow travelers" etc) versus non-allies would be a better division of things.<br/>
+{{correction|[note: there are decent reasons to believe that even by this standard Cliff was a "non-ally".]}}<br/>
+the early stages of a Communist revolution take a lot of skill, education, and correct perception to where there are just these select few people that will actually be able to lead it and fulfill that statement that "without revolutionary theory there can be no revolutionary movement". like, a lot of the people who are actually going to carry a successful revolution aren't even revolutionaries.
+{{li|I=S1/ES|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}Tony Cliff and the ISO [https://www.wsws.org/en/special/library/foundations-uk/16.html]
+{{li|I=S1/PT|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}ISO backing Israel (New Zealand) [https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2026/06/12/acbt-j12.html]  ->  before I read the article... this has to be an effect rather than a cause, doesn't it? if we're going to single out the ISO as bad there has to be some cluster of bad decisions they made before this that led up to this. the Palestine conflict is kind of the lowest common denominator of political issues that everyone who knows nothing about politics talks about, as it seems really obvious to ethicists yet is a difficult problem for anyone to actually solve through political or social theory, thus you get a big mountain of "stupid" opinions about it. so, yeah, ultimately this is a surface symptom, not the underlying problem.
+{{li|I=S2/IV|tradition=unknown|Q=42,79|Q2=4279}}Revolutionaries do not include Tony Cliff  ->  this is... apparently correct? okay.<br/>
+Tony Cliff isn't the kind of person who defects from Trotskyism, but is instead the kind who joins his organization to center-Liberalism and insists on keeping the whole 'unholy quadrangle' together. a new and unique kind of error within 'ways to leave Trotskyism'.
 </li></ol>
 == Related ==
-<ol class="hue clean">
+<ol class="hue clean  field_ML">
 {{li|start=y|I=S1/IV|tradition=IV, Zv|Q=42,84|Q2=4284}}fervent perfidious enemies  ->  I'm not sure if he ever said anything "ironic", but according to a lot of Trotskyists he kind of was one.
-</li><li class="field_trotsky" value="4949" data-dimension="Z">Hiroyoshi Hayashi / {{caps|Hayashi}} Hiroyoshi  ->  the Tony Cliff of Japan. he seemed to me like he might have been trying a little harder but maybe that was just me. either way his theory still did not quite make sense.
+{{li|I=S1/ML/MD|tradition=ML, MX|Q=618|Q2=618}}that's not what Liebknecht supported (Lenin) / Liebknecht's group was distributing illegal anti-war flyers and what has yours done? (sense) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/jan/31b.htm]  ->  I don't fully understand the historical situation in this article but I really appreciate Lenin correcting Grimm on Liebknecht's actual actions.<br/>
+case of: Marx going meta.
+{{li|I=Z1/IV|tradition=IV, Zv|Q=49,49|Q2=4949}}Hiroyoshi Hayashi / {{caps|Hayashi}} Hiroyoshi  ->  the Tony Cliff of Japan. he seemed to me like he might have been trying a little harder but maybe that was just me. either way his theory still did not quite make sense.
+</li><li class="field_horror" value="5483" data-dimension="S">world of Alert ({{book|The Shuteyes}})  ->  the motif of a world where people cannot rest because there are constant disruptions from some kind of larger outside civilization which behaves similarly to one of the great powers of World War II or the Cold War. ...<br/>
+(given that this is a horror-adjacent book the motif quickly takes on a prescriptive character.)
+{{li|I=F2/LR|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}Vote blue no matter who / Always show up to vote for center-Liberal candidates  ->  (Liberal-republican saying)
+{{li|I=F2/ML|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}Discard blue no matter who / Always discard center-Liberal organizations  ->  Bordiga's rule.
+{{li|I=S2/MX/MD|tradition=MX, ML / Lenin|Q=618|Q2=618}}Invert blue no matter who / Turn blue violet no matter who / Always apply nonpartisan Materialist analysis to center-Liberal organizations to gauge how close they are to producing workers' movements or Marxists and in what way they can be used in a nation-wide workers' movement  ->  this is what you should do with social-democratic parties and center-Liberalism. not just let their candidates rule you.
 </ol>
@@ Line 32: / Line 72: @@
 -->
 == Ideologies or fields ==
-* Fy / fantasy
+* IV / Trotskyism
+* ES / [[EC:9k/RD/Q19,77|Palestine conflict]]
+* P4 / [[EC:9k/RD/Q19,77|Zionism]]
 <!--