Jump to content

Ontology talk:9k/RD/Q44,36: Difference between revisions

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From LithoGraphica
← Older edit
Reversedragon (talk | contribs)
Bureaucrats, Conference pass, Interface administrators, Arts-aligned editors, Crimson-aligned editors, Violet-aligned editors, Administrators
17,072 edits
Stalin arrests and shoots the children of his opponents ... under false accusations [dubious]
Reversedragon (talk | contribs)
Bureaucrats, Conference pass, Interface administrators, Arts-aligned editors, Crimson-aligned editors, Violet-aligned editors, Administrators
17,072 edits
m Their Morals and Ours
 
Line 22: Line 22:
yeah, no.... this proposition is {{em|so}} important I'm putting it in the first 1,000 where usually only basic stuff like physics and mathematics went.
yeah, no.... this proposition is {{em|so}} important I'm putting it in the first 1,000 where usually only basic stuff like physics and mathematics went.


{{li|I=Z1/IV|Q=618|Q2=618}}{{article|Their Morals and Ours}} (Trotsky 1938) [https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/morals/morals.htm] ->  a key article to look back on when discussing or explaining this proposition.
{{li|I=Z1/IV|Q=19,04|Q2=1904}}{{article|Their Morals and Ours}} (Trotsky 1938) / ({{9k|RD/Q19,04}}) ->  a key article to look back on when discussing or explaining this proposition.


{{li|I=S2/IV|Q=436|Q2=436}}Stalin arrests and shoots the children of his opponents after these opponents have been themselves executed under false accusations [https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/morals/morals.htm] -><br/>
{{li|I=S2/IV|Q=436|Q2=436}}Stalin arrests and shoots the children of his opponents after these opponents have been themselves executed under false accusations / ({{9k|RD/Q19,04}}) -><br/>
Trotsky, you are not slick putting this directly after a section about how lies are a necessary weapon of war. that is like the biggest freudian slip ever.<br/>
Trotsky, you are not slick putting this directly after a section about how lies are a necessary weapon of war. that is like the biggest freudian slip ever.<br/>
the specific charges might be wrong, but if Stalin got them they probably did {{em|something}}. you know, as part of the underground Trotskyist operation. the potential revolution. I don't call it a conspiracy any more. but now that we're past about 1953, I do think people need to stop lying about it.
the specific charges might be wrong, but if Stalin got them they probably did {{em|something}}. you know, as part of the underground Trotskyist operation. the potential revolution. I don't call it a conspiracy any more. but now that we're past about 1953, I do think people need to stop lying about it.
{{li|I=S2/IV|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}The very conception of truth and lie was born of social contradictions / ({{9k|RD/Q19,04}})  ->  yeah this is it. ... society dividing into groups of people including physical tribes, factions, clusters of businesses, and finally class populations are the real roots of the entire discussion about truth versus lies in the age of capitalism
{{li|I=S2/IV|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}It is impossible to create a revolutionary party of the proletariat without complete independence from the bourgeoisie and their morality / Whoever fawns before precepts established by the enemy will never vanquish that enemy! (Trotsky) / ({{9k|RD/Q19,04}})
{{li|I=S2/IV|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}The lies and the violence of war will go away in proportion to how much class conflicts have vanished from society / ({{9k|RD/Q19,04}})
{{li|I=S2/IV|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}Intentions alone cannot make you Progressive or Reactionary / The ends are not accessible without control over the effects of the means / Show not the goal but show also the path (Lassalle) / ({{9k|RD/Q19,04}})
{{li|I=S2/IV|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}Deceive unions when necessary / "Maneuvers and subterfuge" are in this case only methods of valid self-defense against a perfidious reformist bureaucracy (trade union bureaucracy; Soviet bureaucracy) (Lenin, Trotsky)  ->  he specifically refers to the trade union bureaucracy here but the context makes it amply obvious he does mean either one
{{li|I=S2/IV|tradition=|Q=618|Q2=618}}Permissible and obligatory are those and only those means which unite the revolutionary proletariat, fill their hearts with irreconcilable hostility to oppression, teach them contempt for official morality and its democratic echoers, imbue them with consciousness of their own historic mission, raise their courage and spirit of self-sacrifice in the struggle ... the great revolutionary end spurns those base means and ways which set one part of the working class against other parts, or attempt to make the masses happy without their participation; or lower the faith of the masses in themselves and their organization, replacing it by worship for the "leaders"


</li></ol>
</li></ol>

Latest revision as of 07:57, 20 August 2026

Main entry

  1. Laws don't apply to Lev Sedov

  2. Laws don't apply to Lev Sedov / No laws apply to Lev Sedov / Trotsky has exclusive privileges to kill people that nobody else has including Stalin[error 1], as long as nobody else ever finds out he did it; Trotsky or any other member of the 1930s Trotskyite conspiracy[error 2] the Left Opposition and its allies is radically innocent until proven guilty, to the point that as long as enough people subjectively think he's innocent[error 3] he is entitled to dismantle entire legal systems and governments and definitions of treason and definitions of terrorism[error 1] as long as nobody notices before he's finished / You are exempt from all laws and moral dictates if your name is Lev Sedov ->
    it really disturbs me to what extent everything that happens in the United States is all about morality and holding every single individual to the same standards even across situations that really should be different, and yet somehow, Trotsky is the only exception to all of it, and he gets to do whatever he wants as long as most people across the world agree he never did it. that makes absolutely no logical sense in any way and the last tiny fragment of me that can comprehend Enlightenment rationalism on any level at all is furious about it.
  3. Laws don't apply to Lev Sedov -> okay let's try this again. I think I was legitimately trying to describe something but, yeah, I totally fumbled what the actual claims of Trotskyism were.
  4. Laws don't apply to Lev Sedov / If Trotsky can build a case within his group of allies that they are the real Communist party and Stalin's party is not, then a political revolution begins at him effective immediately and he has exclusive privileges to kill people that nobody else has including Stalin, which are active specifically as long as nobody else ever finds out he did it; Trotsky or any other member of the Left Opposition and its allies — Grigori Zinoviev, Lev Sedov, whoever may or may not be contributing — is radically innocent until proven guilty, to the point that as long as enough people subjectively think that Stalin's claim to being a valid Communist party with a valid state cannot be proven he is entitled to dismantle entire legal systems and governments and definitions of treason and definitions of terrorism as long as nobody notices before he's finished ->
    the idea here was supposed to be that early Trotskyism is taking a huge leap in declaring itself the only valid government, and it's worth asking how they can possibly know that. this isn't to say there aren't answers to the question. as well, if he successfully lands the argument that he is the only valid proletarian revolution, well, as shocking as this claim might sound it's not even bad.

Related

  1. Trotsky changed his name to Sedov for citizenship reasons [1] [2] -> mostly just a funny little bit of trivia about the notoriously bad Russian passport system that remained notoriously bad into the time of the Soviet Union. (quite literally, the Bolsheviks took advantage of the bad passport system of the Russian Empire, and then the Trotskyite conspirators Trotskyist allies that came out of Germany etc. did it again.) but sometimes it comes up when pondering the weird little question of whether Trotsky and his son Lev Sedov technically have the exact same name. I just cannot get over that, that he would always act like it doesn't matter if he's arrogant if he's correct, but he and his son have the same name.

  2. Trotsky was framed

    / The 1930s Trotskyite conspiracy never happened / Trotsky was framed / Lev Sedov was framed / Zinoviev was framed / Emmanuel Goldstein was framed (fiction) / Snowball was framed (fiction) -> this is one of those statements that's so centrally important to world history that it's fine for the main sense of the Item to be in the negative instead of the positive.

    yeah, no.... this proposition is so important I'm putting it in the first 1,000 where usually only basic stuff like physics and mathematics went.

  3. Their Morals and Ours (Trotsky 1938) / (9k) -> a key article to look back on when discussing or explaining this proposition.
  4. Stalin arrests and shoots the children of his opponents after these opponents have been themselves executed under false accusations / (9k) ->
    Trotsky, you are not slick putting this directly after a section about how lies are a necessary weapon of war. that is like the biggest freudian slip ever.
    the specific charges might be wrong, but if Stalin got them they probably did something. you know, as part of the underground Trotskyist operation. the potential revolution. I don't call it a conspiracy any more. but now that we're past about 1953, I do think people need to stop lying about it.
  5. The very conception of truth and lie was born of social contradictions / (9k) -> yeah this is it. ... society dividing into groups of people including physical tribes, factions, clusters of businesses, and finally class populations are the real roots of the entire discussion about truth versus lies in the age of capitalism
  6. It is impossible to create a revolutionary party of the proletariat without complete independence from the bourgeoisie and their morality / Whoever fawns before precepts established by the enemy will never vanquish that enemy! (Trotsky) / (9k)
  7. The lies and the violence of war will go away in proportion to how much class conflicts have vanished from society / (9k)
  8. Intentions alone cannot make you Progressive or Reactionary / The ends are not accessible without control over the effects of the means / Show not the goal but show also the path (Lassalle) / (9k)
  9. Deceive unions when necessary / "Maneuvers and subterfuge" are in this case only methods of valid self-defense against a perfidious reformist bureaucracy (trade union bureaucracy; Soviet bureaucracy) (Lenin, Trotsky) -> he specifically refers to the trade union bureaucracy here but the context makes it amply obvious he does mean either one
  10. Permissible and obligatory are those and only those means which unite the revolutionary proletariat, fill their hearts with irreconcilable hostility to oppression, teach them contempt for official morality and its democratic echoers, imbue them with consciousness of their own historic mission, raise their courage and spirit of self-sacrifice in the struggle ... the great revolutionary end spurns those base means and ways which set one part of the working class against other parts, or attempt to make the masses happy without their participation; or lower the faith of the masses in themselves and their organization, replacing it by worship for the "leaders"

Ideologies or fields

  1. pronounced Fourth / Trotskyism
  2. pronounced M-L / Stalinism (Soviet Union)
  3. pronounced M-L / Stalin's Marxism (2020s)

Subpages or related scraps

Errors

  1. ↑ 1.0 1.1 Note: in the situation that it can be proved that Trotskyists are leading a coherent revolution against older forms of society this goes from being an "error in Trotskyism" to just an interesting observation and a casual description of what revolution is.
  2. ↑ "Trotskyite conspiracy" implies that the Left Opposition had no unique new political content. In actuality, it had the theory of permanent revolution.
  3. ↑ Trotsky was relatively unpopular in the Soviet Union. This, ironically, actually stands against the model that he was leading a popular movement of non-proletarians who didn't understand Marxism, and leaves open the possibility that he was unpopular because he defended correct models that nobody understood.
Retrieved from "https://research.moraleconomy.au/index.php?title=Ontology_talk:9k/RD/Q44,36&oldid=45333"