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Main entry

secular animism

Animism and supply chains

Globalization destroys consequentialist ethics [1] -> only an anarchist could believe this. to any Communist it makes deontological ethics impossible and consequentialist ethics critical to understand and apply.
Animism can be used to understand supply chains; this is to imply that animism can be secular as opposed to being religion [2] -> I am fascinated by this. I don't like the concept. I kind of hate it. but I really want to know what on earth it could possibly mean. because from the explanation of the premise given in the video that introduced it, I have absolutely no idea how you conceptualize animism without religion.

Miscellaneous

Tribal populations lived less exploitative and more sustainable lives because of animism / Animism originated in tribal populations, and tribal populations lived less exploitative and more sustainable lives, therefore they lived this way because of animism, and industrial societies stopped living this way because colonialism maliciously destroyed animism [3]
Scientific rationalism is insufficient for creating purpose and meaning; it is unclear what purpose or meaning implies in this context [4] -> so. maybe this is a stupid question. why do we need to create purpose and meaning in the first place? why is it necessary to have a framework for that and immediately assume it applies to everything? how can we know that any given framework for "creating purpose and meaning" will not run into nasty issues of plurality where it will inherently begin enforcing itself onto other people who don't want to use it while they would rather enforce a different framework?
think about this. Trotskyism claims to be able to unite everyone of all industrial societies around the world. but it inevitably runs into conflicts with Third World Marxisms that don't want Trotskyism essentially invading their country from the outside and conquering their population — which it inevitably does because it doesn't like the idea of non-Trotskyisms joining the Fourth International on their own terms, starting 'from within their own framework of meaning'. how do you know this problem couldn't happen with basically all philosophies ever including secular animism? I am convinced at this point that all philosophies that don't acknowledge the concept of meta-philosophy and analyzing themselves as mere objects rather than Subjects are basically garbage. people say that "scientific rationalism" centers humans. but I don't think that's the problem. I think the real problem is that it centers The Subject, and can't conceptualize a universe that is made of inanimate objects instead of Subjects. and, sure, it'd be ridiculous to create an ethics centered around inanimate objects. but if you aren't thinking in terms of ethics, and are thinking in terms of descriptively modeling the universe to get the best consequences, I think a model centered on inanimate objects is the way to go. every time you center The Subject you will always give Subjects the power to conquer the rest of the universe, because that's what individual Subjects do: they eat, occupy space, fight, and reproduce. so I think you honestly get a way more ethical philosophy if you practice "inanimism" rather than animism. because only a philosophy that includes the whole universe including inanimate objects truly lacks the ability to exclude any group of people.
When Westerners appropriate animism for themselves and see it specifically through Western eyes, discussions about animism are not insulting tribal populations any more [5] -> this feels.... ironic, like a bit of a disaster waiting to happen.
Animism is concerned with learning how to be a good person in respectful relationships with other living beings [6]
Lake Erie is a living entity because it is full of living organisms [7] -> on one hand, this is technically true. like, if it contains many individual living organisms, Lake Erie is conceptually a population, and populations are ecological entities. I can't even really say that laws protecting the lake or protecting animal populations are necessarily bad.
on the other hand, I think the best response to this claim is to pull out scenes from old mildly-racist cartoons. notably that scene in Kimba the White Lion where an African tribe in a scarcely developed area was illegally hunting animals and somebody from a city just flat out started ordering the tribal people around and telling them the city had the rights to those animals, not the tribal people, so the tribal people have to move to the city and participate in capitalism at its lowest rungs. and Kimba the white lion just stood there smiling at it the whole time. this is what happens when humans think that any group of humans can actually speak for inanimate objects or nonhuman animals as if they were people — the objects turn into allies of that specific group of people against other groups of people, which can be used to oppress other groups of people in a Filament effect.
Ecosystems are biosemiotic processes in which living organisms create meaning as they interact; it is still unclear what "biosemiotic" or "meaning" means in this context (Eduardo Kohn) [8]
Biological evolution is the invention of a self / Biological evolution of particular species or individual traits is in fact the invention of a self and the act of meaning-making (Eduardo Kohn) [9] / Be yourself because everyone else is already taken (interpreted rather literally; generic) -> okay now this is one of those claims that's uniquely Existentialist. I swear only existentialism could think of this. that the survival of particular species in a given form is somehow an act of Free Will and a choice, and ecological specialization is an inherently good thing because it enables species to Not Violate Arceism and not step over each other. this strikes me as an inherently capitalist philosophy. it's very ironic that the article characterizes old outdated pictures of ecosystems as 'modeled on capitalism' and then fails to see how its newer 'more accurate versions' are in fact also modeled on capitalism but way more insidiously. the new "agenda" being presented here is that as a particular unique special living self you don't deserve to have a particular self if somebody else can have that specific self better; that if somebody else has a specific self and you try to have it too then you have no respect for others and are inherently Freedom-hating and colonial if you don't change yourself to be a different self than the self you wanted to be; that your most authentic inner self is inherently restricted by social class and fine-grained social standing and being superior or inferior at things, and deserving or undeserving of particular actions and forms of expression is a natural part of having a self; that what is essentially a spatial hierarchy where everyone horizontally oppresses each other and tells everyone who they can and cannot be is in fact a form of respect and Community that is especially organic and natural and whole.
Ecosystems are single populations / Particular local ecosystems are singular populations, not a separable plurality of populations [10] / Biome are not singular (counter-claim) -> I do not think this is true. how is it physically possible for invasive species to exist, or for human civilization to exist, if ecosystems are naturally connected into one population and that process is an inseparable part of them? how was it physically possible for humanity to separate from that at all??
Commons are realms of life defined by organic wholeness and relationality, as opposed to division and alienation; it is unclear what "organic" or "relationality" implies in this context [11]

Life or consciousness as hallway

hotel hallway of minds / David Rain doorways (philosophy) / psychological hotel hallway (psychoanalytic; critical-theoretic; Freud, Jung; Habermas) / communicative reason (Habermas; generic) -> this is the gateway, pun somewhat intended, between Jungian psychoanalysis and anarchism. this silly hall of mind doorways. one door leads to traditional animism, one door leads to psychoanalysis and the "collective unconscious", and one door leads to modern anarchisms including the "Arceism" motif in Pokémon. oh yeah and one door leads back to early-existentialism and Henri Bergson.
why do human beings keep coming up with this. I mean, I know the reasons behind the secular-animism and animism-revival side of things, but how do people keep getting here in such different ways?? Jung got his hallway out of shared themes in dreams coming from similar human minds. Last Dragon Chronicles and Pokémon got it from old religions (Shintō and Inuit animism respectively). anarchists seem to get it from weird psychological trips about ecology that genuinely don't make any sense. I'm going to ignore the fact that sometimes they copy it from tribal populations because they almost always have independent lines of reasoning to get there that are supposed to lead there anyway. so.... what's the commonality? I don't really understand why these all lead to the same place.
Reality is a commons; this is to imply that all conscious beings are united by consciousness rather than divided by it (Andreas Weber) [12] -> ah. they're using "commoning" to smuggle in Henri Bergson.

Arguments against

inanimism -> the motif of seeing the universe as based on inanimate objects. [13] this term is rare, but already occasionally in use.
Every known sociophilosophy (political faction or ideologically-charged theory of society) requires separation between individuals in order to create a "commons" or "community" -> I really cannot think of one that doesn't. not after that statement on a David Graeber review that said that bush people have a core concept of 'personal autonomy of the other'. well, White people have been either explaining that or twisting that to always mean a strict separation between people where people are specialized and do and own specific things. unless this is just a gross appropriation of animism by Eduardo Kohn — which I'd totally entertain, because all of this has sounded pretty ~~pronounced [BS]~~ to me — I genuinely don't think there is any meaningful distinction between secular animism and "Enlightenment rationalism" in that they both seem to promote this very Artisanal view of the individual where freedom and respect are strictly achieved through autonomy, social standing, and property.

Ideology codes

A / anarchism

@@ Line 10: / Line 10: @@
 <ol class="hue clean">
-{{li|start=y|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Globalization destroys consequentialist ethics {{YouTube|mPWjBqlAZQ4}}  ->  only an anarchist could believe this.
+{{li|start=y|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Globalization destroys consequentialist ethics {{YouTube|mPWjBqlAZQ4}}  ->  only an anarchist could believe this. to any Communist it makes deontological ethics impossible and consequentialist ethics critical to understand and apply.
 {{li|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Animism can be used to understand supply chains; this is to imply that animism can be secular as opposed to being religion {{YouTube|mPWjBqlAZQ4}}  ->  I am fascinated by this. I don't like the concept. I kind of hate it. but I really want to know what on earth it could possibly mean. because from the explanation of the premise given in the video that introduced it, I have absolutely no idea how you conceptualize animism without religion.
@@ Line 19: / Line 19: @@
 <ol class="hue clean">
-{{li|start=y|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Tribal populations lived less exploitative and more sustainable lives, therefore they lived this way because of animism / Animism originated in tribal populations, and tribal populations lived less exploitative and more sustainable lives, therefore they lived this way because of animism, and industrial societies stopped living this way because colonialism maliciously destroyed animism [https://www.reddit.com/r/SecularAnimism/comments/x2pih3/why_secular_animism/]
+{{li|start=y|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Tribal populations lived less exploitative and more sustainable lives because of animism / Animism originated in tribal populations, and tribal populations lived less exploitative and more sustainable lives, therefore they lived this way because of animism, and industrial societies stopped living this way because colonialism maliciously destroyed animism [https://www.reddit.com/r/SecularAnimism/comments/x2pih3/why_secular_animism/]
 {{li|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Scientific rationalism is insufficient for creating purpose and meaning; it is unclear what purpose or meaning implies in this context [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/]  ->  so. maybe this is a stupid question. why do we need to create purpose and meaning in the first place? why is it necessary to have a framework for that and immediately assume it applies to everything? how can we know that any given framework for "creating purpose and meaning" will not run into nasty issues of plurality where it will inherently begin enforcing itself onto other people who don't want to use it while they would rather enforce a different framework?<br/>
 think about this. Trotskyism claims to be able to unite everyone of all industrial societies around the world. but it inevitably runs into conflicts with Third World Marxisms that don't want Trotskyism essentially invading their country from the outside and conquering their population — which it inevitably does because it doesn't like the idea of non-Trotskyisms joining the Fourth International on their own terms, starting 'from within their own framework of meaning'. how do you know this problem couldn't happen with basically all philosophies ever including secular animism? I am convinced at this point that all philosophies that don't acknowledge the concept of meta-philosophy and analyzing themselves as mere objects rather than Subjects are basically garbage. people say that "scientific rationalism" centers humans. but I don't think that's the problem. I think the real problem is that it centers The Subject, and can't conceptualize a universe that is made of inanimate objects instead of Subjects. and, sure, it'd be ridiculous to create an {{em|ethics}} centered around inanimate objects. but if you aren't thinking in terms of ethics, and are thinking in terms of descriptively modeling the universe to get the best consequences, I think a model centered on inanimate objects is the way to go. every time you center The Subject you will always give Subjects the power to conquer the rest of the universe, because that's what individual Subjects do: they eat, occupy space, fight, and reproduce. so I think you honestly get a way more {{em|ethical}} philosophy if you practice "inanimism" rather than animism. because only a philosophy that includes the whole universe including inanimate objects truly lacks the ability to exclude any group of people.
-{{li|I=S2/A|Q=618}}When Westerners appropriate animism for themselves and see it specifically through Western eyes, discussions about animism are not insulting tribal populations any more [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/]
+{{li|I=S2/A|Q=618}}When Westerners appropriate animism for themselves and see it specifically through Western eyes, discussions about animism are not insulting tribal populations any more [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/]  ->  this feels.... ironic, like a bit of a disaster waiting to happen.
 {{li|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Animism is concerned with learning how to be a good person in respectful relationships with other living beings [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/]
-{{li|I=S2/A/ES|Q=618}}Reality is a commons; this is to imply that all conscious beings are united by consciousness rather than divided by it (Andreas Weber) [https://patternsofcommoning.org/reality-as-commons-a-poetics-of-participation-for-the-anthropocene/]  ->  ah. they're using "commoning" to smuggle in Henri Bergson.
 {{li|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Lake Erie is a living entity because it is full of living organisms [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/]  ->  on one hand, this is technically true. like, if it contains many individual living organisms, Lake Erie is conceptually a population, and populations are ecological entities. I can't even really say that laws protecting the lake or protecting animal populations are necessarily bad.<br/>
 on the other hand, I think the best response to this claim is to pull out scenes from old mildly-racist cartoons. notably that scene in {{film|Kimba the White Lion}} where an African tribe in a scarcely developed area was illegally hunting animals and somebody from a city just flat out started ordering the tribal people around and telling them the city had the rights to those animals, not the tribal people, so the tribal people have to move to the city and participate in capitalism at its lowest rungs. and Kimba the white lion just stood there smiling at it the whole time. this is what happens when humans think that any group of humans can actually speak for inanimate objects or nonhuman animals as if they were people — the objects turn into allies of that specific group of people against other groups of people, which can be used to [[E:Anarchism can oppress people|oppress other groups of people]] in a Filament effect.
-{{li|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Ecosystems are biosemiotic processes in which living organisms create meaning as they interact; it is still unclear what "biosemiotic" or "meaning" means in this context [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/]
+{{li|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Ecosystems are biosemiotic processes in which living organisms create meaning as they interact; it is still unclear what "biosemiotic" or "meaning" means in this context (Eduardo Kohn) [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/]
-{{li|I=S2/ES|Q=618}}Biological evolution is the invention of a self / Biological evolution of particular species or individual traits is in fact the invention of a self and the act of meaning-making [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/] / Be yourself because everyone else is already taken (generic)  ->  okay now this is one of those claims that's uniquely Existentialist. I swear only existentialism could think of this. that the survival of particular species in a given form is somehow an act of Free Will and a choice, and ecological specialization is an inherently good thing because it enables species to Not Violate [[E:Arceism|Arceism]] and not step over each other. this strikes me as an inherently capitalist philosophy. it's very ironic that the article characterizes old outdated pictures of ecosystems as 'modeled on capitalism' and then fails to see how its newer 'more accurate versions' are in fact also modeled on capitalism but way more insidiously. the new "agenda" being presented here is that as a particular unique special living self you don't deserve to have a particular self if somebody else can have that specific self better; that if somebody else has a specific self and you try to have it too then you have no respect for others and are inherently Freedom-hating and colonial if you don't change yourself to be a different self than the self you wanted to be; that your most authentic inner self is inherently restricted by social class and fine-grained social standing and being superior or inferior at things, and deserving or undeserving of particular actions and forms of expression is a natural part of having a self; that what is essentially a spatial hierarchy where everyone horizontally oppresses each other and tells everyone who they can and cannot be is in fact a form of respect and Community that is especially organic and natural and whole.
+{{li|I=S2/ES|Q=618}}Biological evolution is the invention of a self / Biological evolution of particular species or individual traits is in fact the invention of a self and the act of meaning-making (Eduardo Kohn) [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/] / Be yourself because everyone else is already taken (interpreted rather literally; generic)  ->  okay now this is one of those claims that's uniquely Existentialist. I swear only existentialism could think of this. that the survival of particular species in a given form is somehow an act of Free Will and a choice, and ecological specialization is an inherently good thing because it enables species to Not Violate [[E:Arceism|Arceism]] and not step over each other. this strikes me as an inherently capitalist philosophy. it's very ironic that the article characterizes old outdated pictures of ecosystems as 'modeled on capitalism' and then fails to see how its newer 'more accurate versions' are in fact also modeled on capitalism but way more insidiously. the new "agenda" being presented here is that as a particular unique special living self you don't deserve to have a particular self if somebody else can have that specific self better; that if somebody else has a specific self and you try to have it too then you have no respect for others and are inherently Freedom-hating and colonial if you don't change yourself to be a different self than the self you wanted to be; that your most authentic inner self is inherently restricted by social class and fine-grained social standing and being superior or inferior at things, and deserving or undeserving of particular actions and forms of expression is a natural part of having a self; that what is essentially a spatial hierarchy where everyone horizontally oppresses each other and tells everyone who they can and cannot be is in fact a form of respect and Community that is especially organic and natural and whole.
 {{li|I=S2/A|Q=618}}Ecosystems are single populations / Particular local ecosystems are singular populations, not a separable plurality of populations [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/] / Biome are not singular (counter-claim)  ->  I do not think this is true. how is it physically possible for invasive species to exist, or for human civilization to exist, if ecosystems are naturally connected into one population and that process is an inseparable part of them? how was it physically possible for humanity to separate from that at all??
@@ Line 43: / Line 41: @@
 </li></ol>
-== Doorways ==
+== Life or consciousness as hallway ==
 <ol class="hue clean">
 {{li|start=y|I=S1/ES|Q=618}}hotel hallway of minds / David Rain doorways (philosophy) / psychological hotel hallway (psychoanalytic; critical-theoretic; Freud, Jung; Habermas) / communicative reason (Habermas; generic)  ->  this is the gateway, pun somewhat intended, between Jungian psychoanalysis and anarchism. this silly hall of mind doorways. one door leads to traditional animism, one door leads to psychoanalysis and the "collective unconscious", and one door leads to modern anarchisms including the "Arceism" motif in {{game|Pokémon}}. oh yeah and one door leads back to [[E:Q42|early-existentialism]] and Henri Bergson.<br/>
 why do human beings keep coming up with this. I mean, I know the reasons behind the secular-animism and animism-revival side of things, but how do people keep getting here in such {{em|different ways}}?? Jung got his hallway out of shared themes in dreams coming from similar human minds. Last Dragon Chronicles and {{game|Pokémon}} got it from old religions (Shintō and Inuit animism respectively). anarchists seem to get it from weird psychological trips about ecology that genuinely don't make any sense. I'm going to ignore the fact that sometimes they copy it from tribal populations because they almost always have independent lines of reasoning to get there that are supposed to lead there anyway. so.... what's the commonality? I don't really understand why these all lead to the same place.
+{{li|I=S2/A/ES|Q=618}}Reality is a commons; this is to imply that all conscious beings are united by consciousness rather than divided by it (Andreas Weber) [https://patternsofcommoning.org/reality-as-commons-a-poetics-of-participation-for-the-anthropocene/]  ->  ah. they're using "commoning" to smuggle in Henri Bergson.
+</li></ol>
+== Arguments against ==
+<ol class="hue clean">
+{{li|start=y|I=S1/EC/MX|Q=618}}inanimism  ->  the motif of seeing the universe as based on inanimate objects. [https://www.academia.edu/106417446/Animisms_practical_Indigenous_philosophies] this term is rare, but already occasionally in use.
+{{li|I=S2/A/MX|Q=618}}Every known sociophilosophy (political faction or ideologically-charged theory of society) requires separation between individuals in order to create a "commons" or "community"  ->  I really cannot think of one that doesn't. not after that statement on a David Graeber review that said that bush people have a core concept of 'personal autonomy of the other'. well, White people have been either explaining that or twisting that to always mean a {{em|strict}} separation between people where people are specialized and do and own specific things. unless this is just a gross appropriation of animism by Eduardo Kohn — which I'd totally entertain, because all of this has sounded pretty {{censor|bullshit|tts=[BS]}} to me — I genuinely don't think there is any meaningful distinction between secular animism and "Enlightenment rationalism" in that they both seem to promote this very [[E:Artisan layer (meta-Marxism)|Artisanal]] view of the individual where freedom and respect are strictly achieved through autonomy, social standing, and property.
 </li></ol>
@@ Line 55: / Line 64: @@
 {{li|start=y|I=S1/A|Q=618}}re-enchanting the world [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/]  ->  what has always confused me is, what actually is this, and why is it necessary?
-{{li|I=S1/EC/MX|Q=618}}inanimism  ->  the motif of seeing the universe as based on inanimate objects. [https://www.academia.edu/106417446/Animisms_practical_Indigenous_philosophies] this term is rare, but already occasionally in use.
 {{li|I=Z1/A|Q=618}}{{book|How Forests Think: Toward an Anthropology beyond the Human}} (Kohn 2013) [https://www.resilience.org/stories/2020-01-29/the-new-animism-and-commoning/]

Revision as of 00:12, 19 April 2026

Main entry

Animism and supply chains

Miscellaneous

Life or consciousness as hallway

Arguments against

Related

Ideology codes