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The Knight contains Dess / The Knight is a ball of glass
Reversedragon (talk | contribs)
Bureaucrats, Conference pass, Interface administrators, Arts-aligned editors, Crimson-aligned editors, Violet-aligned editors, Administrators
18,856 edits
it's better you don't wake up / W.D. Gaster is the demiurge of the Deltarune universe
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and, importantly, the one thing is {{em|not}} "[[EC:9k/RD/Q65,63|Howard Blast theory]]". Undertale had to look like that to disguise what the actual idea that would appear in Deltarune is, so as not to outright spoil Deltarune. this is obvious once you've seen Chapter 4 or so of Deltarune. I'd argue that the Knight apparently hiding in a closet / dark room twice already begins to set up a different story in and of itself, if rather subtly.
and, importantly, the one thing is {{em|not}} "[[EC:9k/RD/Q65,63|Howard Blast theory]]". Undertale had to look like that to disguise what the actual idea that would appear in Deltarune is, so as not to outright spoil Deltarune. this is obvious once you've seen Chapter 4 or so of Deltarune. I'd argue that the Knight apparently hiding in a closet / dark room twice already begins to set up a different story in and of itself, if rather subtly.


{{li|I=F2/DFy|Q=66,34|Q2=6634}}The Knight contains Dess  ->  it's hard to say this is true any more, due to new evidence on {{caps|Image_Friend}}. now I think I can only say "the Knight is Dess' puppet".
{{li|I=S2/UTDR/WD66|Q=66,49|Q2=6649}}The forgotten "man" is Dess / The Forgotten Man symbolizes Dess struggling against an antagonist within the giant Amalgamate figure echoed by the mystery man in Undertale ->  I still think this is definitely true but not in the same way. what I now think is true is that Dess is the same character as Gaster and {{em|always was}} playing Gaster within Deltarune but what Dess is struggling against is the game world. Dess thought he could take control of the game world to be in control of the Roaring and stop it, but the game world took control of him to make a scarier Roaring complete with Titans and a freaky-eyed starry deer face.


{{li|I=S2/UTDR/WD66|Q=66,30|Q2=6630}}The Knight is a ball of glass / The Knight is some kind of ball or stone that Dess skipped into the Dark Worlds and Light World to make waves [vid] — possibly a ball formed out of molten glass shards that fell away from Dess while escaping the game world  {{9k|RD|Q66,30}}
{{li|I=S2/UTDR/WD66|Q=618|Q2=618}}"Beware the man that speaks in hands" means that Dess controls the world and normal_npc is Dess' hand puppet
 
{{li|I=S2/UTDR/WD66|Q=618|Q2=618}}"Beware the man from another world" refers to Dess, and means either that Dess was projected from Deltarune into Undertale as the mysteryman and the legends of W.D. Gaster, or that Dess resides in a hidden layer of Deltarune's reality ("world"; "Titan world"; Nowhere) below Hometown
 
{{li|I=S2/UTDR/DFy|Q=618|Q2=618}}Dess will only be shockingly revealed to be a man after Chapter 5 / Dess will only be shockingly revealed to the player as a man in Chapter 7, and not in Chapter 6 (sense)  ->  I genuinely don't think it will happen in Chapter 6 now, due to the skip. That skip has to be there to avoid some kind of "time waster".
 
{{li|I=S2/UTDR/DFy|Q=618|Q2=618}}The Knight contains {{caps|Image_Friend}}  ->  this is such a troll suggestion but I think there's real reason to believe Chapter 6 will pull this to mess with players and make them stop looking for what is truly controlling the Knight. {{caps|Friend}} is inside the Knight. Dess is controlling the Knight by controlling {{caps|Image_Friend}}. (and also controlling the Shadow Mantle so that can be hidden until it is able to taunt Kris in a boss fight toward a goal the player does not yet know about in Chapter 3.)
 
{{li|I=S2/UTDR/WD66|Q=66,30|Q2=6630}}The Knight is a ball of glass / The Knight is a ball formed out of molten glass shards that fell away from Dess while escaping the game world {{9k|RD|Q66,30}} ->  this ball of glass used to be the outer boundary of Dess that separated a Lightner's body from the world. now it's whatever he wants it to be.
 
{{li|I=S1/UTDR/DFy|Q=64,22|Q2=6422|rem-Q3=64,21}}it's better you don't wake up (Chapter 2) / only eyes blinded by darkness can see (generic) {{9k|RD|Q66,30|Q66,90}}  ->  this pair of motifs is describing Titans, as well as loosely describing whatever narrative symbolism they have. we don't have all the pieces of what the narrative symbolism is, but as far as "[[E:grayble foreshadowing|grayble foreshadowing]]", the meaning is clear: "waking up" represents a world beyond the current one. "eyes blinded by darkness" means either waking up to the Dark World being another world rather than just a dream (Dark Fountain = eyes blinded by darkness), or the possibility of opening a gate to another world {{em|in}} the Dark World (second Dark fountain turned Titan fountain = can see). Queen says it's 'better Noelle doesn't wake up' because to her that means the Titan appears, though it could also be the case that Titans are strictly Dark World objects and if you had actually "woken up" it wouldn't look like a Titan any more.


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{{li|I=S2/DFy|Q=66,34|Q2=6634}}The Knight contains Dess  ->  pre- Chapter 5, I thought Dess had basically twisted the world so their body and their will were in totally separate worlds connected only by the Knight and the physical boundary of its glass "armor". meaning that Dess, "the next aspiring Dr. Gaster", is kinda inside the Knight either way, even if he isn't directly there standing in the Light World. his location is in the Light World but he's still in the Titan fountain / "The Depths" pulling the strings to move the Knight, like you'd drive a car, or a remote-controlled mech. it's black-hole logic, Dess changed the actual shape of spacetime, such that he's technically there even though he isn't. which sounds pretty bogus out of context, but if you have all the evidence and the propositions leading up to this then it makes sense.
{{li|I=S2/DFy|Q=66,34|Q2=6634}}The Knight contains Dess  ->  pre- Chapter 5, I thought Dess had basically twisted the world so their body and their will were in totally separate worlds connected only by the Knight and the physical boundary of its glass "armor". meaning that Dess, "the next aspiring Dr. Gaster", is kinda inside the Knight either way, even if he isn't directly there standing in the Light World. his location is in the Light World but he's still in the Titan fountain / "The Depths" pulling the strings to move the Knight, like you'd drive a car, or a remote-controlled mech. it's black-hole logic, Dess changed the actual shape of spacetime, such that he's technically there even though he isn't. which sounds pretty bogus out of context, but if you have all the evidence and the propositions leading up to this then it makes sense.
{{li|I=S2/UTDR/WD66|Q=66,49|Q2=6649}}The forgotten "man" is Dess / The Forgotten Man symbolizes Dess struggling {{b|against Gaster}} within the giant Amalgamate figure echoed by the mystery man in Undertale (sense)
{{li|I=S2/UTDR/DFy|Q=618|Q2=618}}Dess will only be shockingly revealed to be a man after Chapter 5 / Dess will only be shockingly revealed to the player as a man in Chapter 6 (sense)  ->  before Chapter 5, I used to be convinced all the interesting stuff was going to happen in Chapter 6, with several possible slightly elaborate scenarios of Dess chewing out Kris for forgetting him all these years and not going along with his plans, and Chapter 7 was just going to be an action sequence of navigating through the Roaring where you might or might not successfully retrieve Dess.
{{li|I=S2/DFy|Q=65,57|Q2=6557}}There is one choice: killing The Knight / There will be exactly one actual choice to kill or spare in Deltarune, and it will be the reflected memory of Dess {{9k|RD|Q66,30}}  ->  before Chapter 5 I thought you would have the choice to either destroy Dess and the Knight in order to help Gaster so he can hatch out of Dess and put the world back together with his powers, or help Dess (the real Forgotten Man) defeat Gaster, leading to the Roaring unless you properly reunite Dess with the Knight and close the rift in the world. so Deltarune has one sequence of events, the Roaring happens and then with a little more trying you put the world back together, but the one meaningful difference between the endings is whether Dess comes back or you give up on bringing Dess back.
{{li|I=S2/DFy|Q=618|Q2=618}}W.D. Gaster is the demiurge of the Deltarune universe, formed out of the totality of the game code come to life  ->  I was so excited about this one. not only did it make perfect sense with Undertale — Gaster having absurd stats, Gaster being a legendary figure that was never seen in person, Gaster having made such amazing inventions they almost can't be mentioned or explained, leaving you to wonder if all of this stuff is characteristics of the Core or if Gaster maybe just created the whole world of Undertale, messages in the code, be careful what you say because he can always hear you — but it also gave an actual coherent narrative to Deltarune. the characters in Deltarune think they can take control of their world because they realize it's all just physical objects (code objects), but they don't realize that while the game is running it's all one coherent entity that is able to plot against them, and thus they learn their own arrogance when Gaster turns out to be invincible although benevolent and willing to fix the world and create a better future if the player will only cooperate with him instead of Dess. Deltarune's "creator god" is mysterious, adversarial, and like a giant "opposer", making it more like a devil than a god in appearance, but it still created Deltarune and has no evil intentions for its own creation, only the best intentions. this was my proposed explanation for how Gaster "fell into his creation". he is the god of Deltarune that basically created it by existing, but simultaneously fell into it and became not directly accessible; he functions almost exactly like Arceus does in Pokémon, where Arceus itself is the universe all the Pokémon live in and one fragment of Arceus is what appears as a Pokémon (that's the mysteryman).<br/>
as for Gaster in Undertale... I had a more complicated explanation for that one. what I thought was going on there was that Undertale was a microcosm of Deltarune — like a Dark World to part of the Light World — where one of the characters inside Deltarune had created Undertale (I thought it was Kris) and merely become the Gaster {{em|of}} Undertale {{em|relative to}} Undertale by analogy, and they manifested as Gaster because that's just what a creator god looks like in the Undertale-Deltarune cosmos. so Deltarune Gaster was the first Gaster, then Kris became the second Gaster that was successor to Gaster through the act of creating Undertale. Undertale stars a human because the story is from Kris' point of view, but is fixated on death and Chara because those are echoes of Kris dying to become the world of Undertale.
{{li|I=S2/ML|Q=618|Q2=618}}W.D. Gaster is the demiurge of the Deltarune universe  ->  so, yeah. Gaster being the creator god of Deltarune was a cool theory and I almost miss it.<br/>
but the upside is that when I lost it, the Deltarune world became fully material and then it became possible to have [[EC:9k/RD/Q72,84|Communist characters in Deltarune]]. that wasn't possible with the straight-up Arceus setup, because in that scenario there was actually a thinking entity that could stop them and say {{em|objectively}} that treating the universe as a material thing they could take into their own hands wasn't going to work. quite honestly though, if Deltarune is going to begin with the concept of "killing god", there can't be a demiurge figure. it's much more likely the [[:Category:Auldernet (RD)|Far Side]] is lore accurate than that demiurge Gaster exists


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== Related ==
== Related ==
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{{endHue}} -->
 
{{li|start=y|I=S2/Fy/ML|Q=72,84|Q2=7284|h4= Mike is an allegory for Communism }} / Mike is an allegory for Communism within the fictional narrative of the Dark World {{9k|RD|Q72,84}} -> this became actually possible when Chapter 5 revealed that Gaster is Dess and ruled out the possibility of Dess fighting an actual Demiurge.
 
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== {{int:hue-prototype-trads-topics-or-genres}} ==
== {{int:hue-prototype-trads-topics-or-genres}} ==

Revision as of 21:13, 1 November 2026

Main entry

  1. DessAster theory / All Gaster lore is Dess lore / ... -> this is the entry I will use for the sum of all my predictions about Dess and Gaster and the sum of all interconnected theories that went into RedactedTale and Auldernet.
    this entry wasn't really made for use in Wavebuilder combinations (although representing all the component theories through characterizations could be fun), it's more to have a fresh, unique heading for a 9k / Ontology page.

New version

  1. Dess Holiday / (9k)
  2. Deltarune is one idea repeated / Deltarune is just one thing repeated over and over and over [vid] / Undertale-Deltarune is one narrative repeated over and over (sense) ->
    and, importantly, the one thing is not "Howard Blast theory". Undertale had to look like that to disguise what the actual idea that would appear in Deltarune is, so as not to outright spoil Deltarune. this is obvious once you've seen Chapter 4 or so of Deltarune. I'd argue that the Knight apparently hiding in a closet / dark room twice already begins to set up a different story in and of itself, if rather subtly.
  3. The forgotten "man" is Dess / The Forgotten Man symbolizes Dess struggling against an antagonist within the giant Amalgamate figure echoed by the mystery man in Undertale -> I still think this is definitely true but not in the same way. what I now think is true is that Dess is the same character as Gaster and always was playing Gaster within Deltarune but what Dess is struggling against is the game world. Dess thought he could take control of the game world to be in control of the Roaring and stop it, but the game world took control of him to make a scarier Roaring complete with Titans and a freaky-eyed starry deer face.
  4. "Beware the man that speaks in hands" means that Dess controls the world and normal_npc is Dess' hand puppet
  5. "Beware the man from another world" refers to Dess, and means either that Dess was projected from Deltarune into Undertale as the mysteryman and the legends of W.D. Gaster, or that Dess resides in a hidden layer of Deltarune's reality ("world"; "Titan world"; Nowhere) below Hometown
  6. Dess will only be shockingly revealed to be a man after Chapter 5 / Dess will only be shockingly revealed to the player as a man in Chapter 7, and not in Chapter 6 (sense) -> I genuinely don't think it will happen in Chapter 6 now, due to the skip. That skip has to be there to avoid some kind of "time waster".
  7. The Knight contains Image_Friend -> this is such a troll suggestion but I think there's real reason to believe Chapter 6 will pull this to mess with players and make them stop looking for what is truly controlling the Knight. Friend is inside the Knight. Dess is controlling the Knight by controlling Image_Friend. (and also controlling the Shadow Mantle so that can be hidden until it is able to taunt Kris in a boss fight toward a goal the player does not yet know about in Chapter 3.)
  8. The Knight is a ball of glass / The Knight is a ball formed out of molten glass shards that fell away from Dess while escaping the game world / (9k) -> this ball of glass used to be the outer boundary of Dess that separated a Lightner's body from the world. now it's whatever he wants it to be.
  9. it's better you don't wake up (Chapter 2) / only eyes blinded by darkness can see (generic) / (9k: 1, 2) -> this pair of motifs is describing Titans, as well as loosely describing whatever narrative symbolism they have. we don't have all the pieces of what the narrative symbolism is, but as far as "grayble foreshadowing", the meaning is clear: "waking up" represents a world beyond the current one. "eyes blinded by darkness" means either waking up to the Dark World being another world rather than just a dream (Dark Fountain = eyes blinded by darkness), or the possibility of opening a gate to another world in the Dark World (second Dark fountain turned Titan fountain = can see). Queen says it's 'better Noelle doesn't wake up' because to her that means the Titan appears, though it could also be the case that Titans are strictly Dark World objects and if you had actually "woken up" it wouldn't look like a Titan any more.

Old version pre- Chapter 5

  1. The Knight contains Dess -> pre- Chapter 5, I thought Dess had basically twisted the world so their body and their will were in totally separate worlds connected only by the Knight and the physical boundary of its glass "armor". meaning that Dess, "the next aspiring Dr. Gaster", is kinda inside the Knight either way, even if he isn't directly there standing in the Light World. his location is in the Light World but he's still in the Titan fountain / "The Depths" pulling the strings to move the Knight, like you'd drive a car, or a remote-controlled mech. it's black-hole logic, Dess changed the actual shape of spacetime, such that he's technically there even though he isn't. which sounds pretty bogus out of context, but if you have all the evidence and the propositions leading up to this then it makes sense.
  2. The forgotten "man" is Dess / The Forgotten Man symbolizes Dess struggling against Gaster within the giant Amalgamate figure echoed by the mystery man in Undertale (sense)
  3. Dess will only be shockingly revealed to be a man after Chapter 5 / Dess will only be shockingly revealed to the player as a man in Chapter 6 (sense) -> before Chapter 5, I used to be convinced all the interesting stuff was going to happen in Chapter 6, with several possible slightly elaborate scenarios of Dess chewing out Kris for forgetting him all these years and not going along with his plans, and Chapter 7 was just going to be an action sequence of navigating through the Roaring where you might or might not successfully retrieve Dess.
  4. There is one choice: killing The Knight / There will be exactly one actual choice to kill or spare in Deltarune, and it will be the reflected memory of Dess / (9k) -> before Chapter 5 I thought you would have the choice to either destroy Dess and the Knight in order to help Gaster so he can hatch out of Dess and put the world back together with his powers, or help Dess (the real Forgotten Man) defeat Gaster, leading to the Roaring unless you properly reunite Dess with the Knight and close the rift in the world. so Deltarune has one sequence of events, the Roaring happens and then with a little more trying you put the world back together, but the one meaningful difference between the endings is whether Dess comes back or you give up on bringing Dess back.
  5. W.D. Gaster is the demiurge of the Deltarune universe, formed out of the totality of the game code come to life -> I was so excited about this one. not only did it make perfect sense with Undertale — Gaster having absurd stats, Gaster being a legendary figure that was never seen in person, Gaster having made such amazing inventions they almost can't be mentioned or explained, leaving you to wonder if all of this stuff is characteristics of the Core or if Gaster maybe just created the whole world of Undertale, messages in the code, be careful what you say because he can always hear you — but it also gave an actual coherent narrative to Deltarune. the characters in Deltarune think they can take control of their world because they realize it's all just physical objects (code objects), but they don't realize that while the game is running it's all one coherent entity that is able to plot against them, and thus they learn their own arrogance when Gaster turns out to be invincible although benevolent and willing to fix the world and create a better future if the player will only cooperate with him instead of Dess. Deltarune's "creator god" is mysterious, adversarial, and like a giant "opposer", making it more like a devil than a god in appearance, but it still created Deltarune and has no evil intentions for its own creation, only the best intentions. this was my proposed explanation for how Gaster "fell into his creation". he is the god of Deltarune that basically created it by existing, but simultaneously fell into it and became not directly accessible; he functions almost exactly like Arceus does in Pokémon, where Arceus itself is the universe all the Pokémon live in and one fragment of Arceus is what appears as a Pokémon (that's the mysteryman).
    as for Gaster in Undertale... I had a more complicated explanation for that one. what I thought was going on there was that Undertale was a microcosm of Deltarune — like a Dark World to part of the Light World — where one of the characters inside Deltarune had created Undertale (I thought it was Kris) and merely become the Gaster of Undertale relative to Undertale by analogy, and they manifested as Gaster because that's just what a creator god looks like in the Undertale-Deltarune cosmos. so Deltarune Gaster was the first Gaster, then Kris became the second Gaster that was successor to Gaster through the act of creating Undertale. Undertale stars a human because the story is from Kris' point of view, but is fixated on death and Chara because those are echoes of Kris dying to become the world of Undertale.
  6. W.D. Gaster is the demiurge of the Deltarune universe -> so, yeah. Gaster being the creator god of Deltarune was a cool theory and I almost miss it.
    but the upside is that when I lost it, the Deltarune world became fully material and then it became possible to have Communist characters in Deltarune. that wasn't possible with the straight-up Arceus setup, because in that scenario there was actually a thinking entity that could stop them and say objectively that treating the universe as a material thing they could take into their own hands wasn't going to work. quite honestly though, if Deltarune is going to begin with the concept of "killing god", there can't be a demiurge figure. it's much more likely the Far Side is lore accurate than that demiurge Gaster exists

Related

  1. Mike is an allegory for Communism

    / Mike is an allegory for Communism within the fictional narrative of the Dark World / (9k) -> this became actually possible when Chapter 5 revealed that Gaster is Dess and ruled out the possibility of Dess fighting an actual Demiurge.

Ideologies, topics, or genres

  1. pronounced U.T-D.R. / Deltarune
  2. pronounced U.T-D.R. / Dess
  3. pronounced U.T-D.R. / The Roaring Knight
  4. pronounced U.T-D.R. / W.D. Gaster (Deltarune)
  5. pronounced U.T-D.R. / W.D. Gaster (Undertale)

Wavebuilder combinations

pronounced P: pronounced Wave-builder: forms result [Item]
--
along with [Item]
?? (pronounced proposed / Fy)1-1-1
forming from [Item]
?? (pronounced proposed / Fy)1-1-1
--
--

Subpages or related scraps

  • playlist - list of YouTube videos that serve as prior context, or occasionally were just accepted into the Ontology project as propositions
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