Ontology:Q3115: Difference between revisions
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{{HueCSS}}{{BopCSS}}<ol class="hue clean compound"><li> {{ArticleTitle|Communists as concealing nationalism - ES / S1 / Q3115}} | {{HueCSS}}{{BopCSS}}<ol class="hue clean compound"><li> {{ArticleTitle|Communists as concealing nationalism - ES / S1 / Q3115}} | ||
<onlyinclude><dfn class="{{{class|field_exstruct}}} manual" data-dimension="S" data-qid="3115" data-field="" data-series="" data-work="" data-chapter="" data-tale="" data-object="" data-note="" data-lexeme="">{{IS1 | <onlyinclude><dfn class="{{{class|field_exstruct}}} manual" data-dimension="S" data-qid="3115" data-field="" data-series="" data-work="" data-chapter="" data-tale="" data-object="" data-note="" data-lexeme="">{{IS1}}{{#if: {{{1|}}} | [[E:Q3115|{{{1}}}]] | [[E:Q3115|Communists as concealing nationalism]] }}{{#if: {{{3|}}} | {{{3}}} }}{{#if: {{{2|}}} | <ins class="edition-sense term"> ([[E:Q3115/{{{2}}}|{{{2}}}]]<nowiki />)</ins> }}{{WaveScore|sum=1|quilt=1|ply=1|enddfn=1}}</onlyinclude> | ||
</li></ol><!-- change summary template: copy or update fake Item from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNN|Q3115]] --> __NOTOC__ | </li></ol><!-- change summary template: copy or update fake Item from [[Special:PermanentLink/NNNN|Q3115]] --> __NOTOC__ | ||
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<dl class="wikitable hue"> | <dl class="wikitable hue"> | ||
{{HueClaim |P=item type| {{Template:S1}} }} | {{HueClaim |P=item type| {{Template:S1}} }} | ||
{{HueRoster|EP=PPPA/L|lang=en| {{E:Q3115}} }} | {{HueRoster|EP=PPPA/L|lang=en| {{E:Q3115}} | {{E:Q3115|class=field_gramsci}} }} | ||
{{HueClaim |EP=PPPA|lang=en| Communism as a front for Big Government and [[E:totalization|Totalizing Factional Ideologies]], which are simply a generic metaphysical quality slider cranked [[E:generalized dictator|up to the max]] and are not actually [[E:Marxism|crimson]] | because Nazi Germany contained Menshevisk policies, Nazi Germany was the first step to Bolshevism but simply didn't get there | socializing the people (nationalizing the people; socialicizing the population; socialicism) | Communism violated the Liberal-republican Middle Way and sometimes this instead terminates in European fascism (golden mean; Aristotelian ethics) }} | {{HueClaim |EP=PPPA|lang=en| Communism as a front for Big Government and [[E:totalization|Totalizing Factional Ideologies]], which are simply a generic metaphysical quality slider cranked [[E:generalized dictator|up to the max]] and are not actually [[E:Marxism|crimson]] | because Nazi Germany contained Menshevisk policies, Nazi Germany was the first step to Bolshevism but simply didn't get there | socializing the people (nationalizing the people; socialicizing the population; socialicism) | Communism violated the Liberal-republican Middle Way and sometimes this instead terminates in European fascism (golden mean; Aristotelian ethics) | kings can be Mensheviks even if none of their subjects are (<b class{{=}}"caps">Tik</b>) | what Communism and fascism really are, not what postmodern ideologues say they are (<b class{{=}}"caps">Tik</b>) <ref name="tik2" /> }} | ||
{{HueClaim |P=related terms|lang=en| [[E:totalization|totalization]] }} | {{HueClaim |P=related terms|lang=en| [[E:totalization|totalization]] }} | ||
{{HueRoster|EP=P42| -- }} <!-- en: QID references --> | {{HueRoster|EP=P42| -- }} <!-- en: QID references --> | ||
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=== Appearances === | === Appearances === | ||
<dl class="wikitable hue"> | <dl class="wikitable hue data_motifs"> | ||
{{HueRoster| | {{HueRoster|EP=P14| <cite>1984</cite> |OP=relevant quote| -- }} | ||
</dl> | </dl> | ||
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<ol class="hue clean data_urbanfantasy"> | <ol class="hue clean data_urbanfantasy"> | ||
<li class="field_exstruct" value="3115" data-dimension="S"> | <li class="field_exstruct" value="3115" data-dimension="S">... appears in: 1984, resembles: Duginism. | ||
</li></ol> | </li></ol> | ||
== Usage notes == | |||
This motif was recorded based on YouTube videos, but is by no means restricted to videos. <ref name="tik1" /> <ref name="tik2" /> It is very close to standard United States positions on Communism if not the same. <ref name="tik1" /> | |||
This can be very common in ideologies neatly aligned with [[E:Liberal-republicanism|Liberal-republicanism]] but does not seem to be as common in anarchism. Anarchists are usually smart enough to figure out that European fascisms and Bolshevism aren't the same thing and that they need to oppose each of them differently. However, there can also be times when [[E:Western Marxism|Western-Marxists]] manage to not figure this out. This is directly tied to complex divisions inside the world's various Marxisms. Within the First World, Marxism tends to be more neatly restricted to a small subset of educated people while uneducated people and some swaths of academia alike are actively programmed with misinformation and discouraged from learning accurate information by every individual around them. This produces two distinct divisions of Marxists who manage to cut through all the misinformation: Marxists who broadly understand Leninism, akin to Trotsky within his own words or to Gramsci circa 1920, and "Marxists" who actively try to pretend Leninism somehow isn't Marxism. These non-Leninists are sometimes referred to as "Western Marxists", although technically speaking this label is misleading because Western Marxism can also refer to [[E:Gramscianism|Gramscianism]], an ideology which regardless of its real-world effectiveness definitely does present the possibility of realizing itself as a Leninist structure. A hypothetical Gramscian revolution looks like non-fascists all banding together into a social-democratic subpopulation hidden quietly inside society that at some point eventually [[E:filtration|filters]] out the anticommunists and transforms into a Marxist party-nation, becoming [[E:Material System of Bolshevism|a Bolshevism]]. Thus, there is a decent question of whether Western Marxism is even all one category or whether it consists of the distinct category of Gramscianism and at least one distinct category of non-Leninist "Marxism" which is [[E:Marx doubts people are Marxists|dubious in whether it is even Marxism]]. | |||
=== <b class="caps">Tik</b>'s Marxism === | |||
An interesting tangent that may be worth thinking about is when people try to push this motif which Marxism it is that they would be trying to define all of Marxism from within. <b class="caps">Tik</b> clearly does not consider [[E:Juche-socialism|Juche-socialism]] to be an adequate Marxist theory because he does not think a Marxist party-nation can be meaningfully combined with its society and national culture. <ref name="tik2" /> He equally does not seem to be advancing a mainstream Marxist-Leninist definition in how much <i>fear of central government even representing a population</i> his definition of "public" implies. <ref name="tik2" /> There may be an argument that <b class="caps">Tik</b> is operating from inside a [[E:Zinovievism|Trotskyist]] definition of Marxism if one takes his opposition to state businesses as being a Marxist position, although to be properly advancing Trotskyism he would have to imply that all real Marxists do not believe in borders or nation-states. | |||
TIK's stated sources include [[E:Marx|Marx]], [[E:Engels|Engels]], and [[E:Luxemburg|Luxemburg]], in addition to a number of [[E:right-Liberalism|right-Liberal]] sources which for the purposes of this question can be disregarded. | |||
== References == | |||
<references> | |||
<ref name="tik1"><cite class="article">Was Nazism Socialism? (Response to TIK)</cite>. {{TTS|@TheFinnishBolshevik|username The Finnish Bolshevik|href=https://invidious.nerdvpn.de/channel/UCCvdjsJtifsZoShjcAAHZpA#TheFinnishBolshevik2404}}. (18 August 2018; {{TTS|html=abbr|retr.|retrieved}} 7 August 2025). YouTube. {{YouTube|UMrYyPJI1BA}}</ref> | |||
<ref name="tik2"> [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr9TUcWcoYY]</ref> | |||
</references> | |||
Revision as of 12:51, 8 August 2025
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
Core characteristics
- pronounced [P] label [string] (L)
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
- pronounced [P] alias (en) [string]
- Communism as a front for Big Government and Totalizing Factional Ideologies, which are simply a generic metaphysical quality slider cranked up to the max and are not actually crimson
- because Nazi Germany contained Menshevisk policies, Nazi Germany was the first step to Bolshevism but simply didn't get there
- socializing the people (nationalizing the people; socialicizing the population; socialicism)
- Communism violated the Liberal-republican Middle Way and sometimes this instead terminates in European fascism (golden mean; Aristotelian ethics)
- kings can be Mensheviks even if none of their subjects are (Tik)
- what Communism and fascism really are, not what postmodern ideologues say they are (Tik) [1]
- related terms
- QID references [Item] 1-1-1
- --
- color swatch references [Item]
- --
- sub-case of [Item]
- --
- case of [Item]
- Communism as non-Communist ideology
- anticommunist motif
- super-case of [Item]
- --
Appearances
- appears in work [Item]
- 1984
- relevant quote
- --
Wavebuilder combinations
- pronounced [P] pronounced Wavebuilder: forms result [Item]
- --
- along with [Item]
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
- forming from [Item]
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
- --
- --
Wavebuilder characterizations
- pronounced Wavebuilder: route [Item]
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
- along with [Item]
- --
- forming from [Item]
- --
- --
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
Prototype notes
- ... appears in: 1984, resembles: Duginism.
Usage notes
This motif was recorded based on YouTube videos, but is by no means restricted to videos. [2] [1] It is very close to standard United States positions on Communism if not the same. [2]
This can be very common in ideologies neatly aligned with Liberal-republicanism but does not seem to be as common in anarchism. Anarchists are usually smart enough to figure out that European fascisms and Bolshevism aren't the same thing and that they need to oppose each of them differently. However, there can also be times when Western-Marxists manage to not figure this out. This is directly tied to complex divisions inside the world's various Marxisms. Within the First World, Marxism tends to be more neatly restricted to a small subset of educated people while uneducated people and some swaths of academia alike are actively programmed with misinformation and discouraged from learning accurate information by every individual around them. This produces two distinct divisions of Marxists who manage to cut through all the misinformation: Marxists who broadly understand Leninism, akin to Trotsky within his own words or to Gramsci circa 1920, and "Marxists" who actively try to pretend Leninism somehow isn't Marxism. These non-Leninists are sometimes referred to as "Western Marxists", although technically speaking this label is misleading because Western Marxism can also refer to Gramscianism, an ideology which regardless of its real-world effectiveness definitely does present the possibility of realizing itself as a Leninist structure. A hypothetical Gramscian revolution looks like non-fascists all banding together into a social-democratic subpopulation hidden quietly inside society that at some point eventually filters out the anticommunists and transforms into a Marxist party-nation, becoming a Bolshevism. Thus, there is a decent question of whether Western Marxism is even all one category or whether it consists of the distinct category of Gramscianism and at least one distinct category of non-Leninist "Marxism" which is dubious in whether it is even Marxism.
Tik's Marxism
An interesting tangent that may be worth thinking about is when people try to push this motif which Marxism it is that they would be trying to define all of Marxism from within. Tik clearly does not consider Juche-socialism to be an adequate Marxist theory because he does not think a Marxist party-nation can be meaningfully combined with its society and national culture. [1] He equally does not seem to be advancing a mainstream Marxist-Leninist definition in how much fear of central government even representing a population his definition of "public" implies. [1] There may be an argument that Tik is operating from inside a Trotskyist definition of Marxism if one takes his opposition to state businesses as being a Marxist position, although to be properly advancing Trotskyism he would have to imply that all real Marxists do not believe in borders or nation-states.
TIK's stated sources include Marx, Engels, and Luxemburg, in addition to a number of right-Liberal sources which for the purposes of this question can be disregarded.