Ontology:Q3115
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
Core characteristics[edit]
- pronounced [P] label [string] (L)
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
- pronounced [P] alias (en) [string]
- Communism as a front for Big Government and Totalizing Factional Ideologies, which are simply a generic metaphysical quality slider cranked up to the max and are not actually crimson
- because Nazi Germany contained Menshevisk policies, Nazi Germany was the first step to Bolshevism but simply didn't get there
- socializing the people (nationalizing the people; socialicizing the population; socialicism)
- Communism violated the Liberal-republican Middle Way and sometimes this instead terminates in European fascism (golden mean; Aristotelian ethics)
- kings can be Mensheviks even if none of their subjects are (Tik)
- what Communism and fascism really are, not what postmodern ideologues say they are (Tik) [1]
- related terms
- QID references [Item] 1-1-1
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- color swatch references [Item]
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- sub-case of [Item]
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- case of [Item]
- Communism as non-Communist ideology
- anticommunist motif
- super-case of [Item]
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Appearances[edit]
- appears in work [Item]
- 1984
- relevant quote
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Wavebuilder combinations[edit]
- pronounced [P] pronounced Wavebuilder: forms result [Item]
- Duginism
- along with [Item]
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
- forming from [Item]
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
- ideological content of Marxist party
- Duginism
Wavebuilder characterizations[edit]
- pronounced Wavebuilder: route [Item]
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
- along with [Item]
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- forming from [Item]
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- --
- pronounced S–617 pronounced [S] Communists as concealing nationalism 1-1-1
Usage notes[edit]
This motif was recorded based on YouTube videos, but is by no means restricted to videos. [2] [1] It is very close to standard United States positions on Communism if not the same. [2]
This can be very common in ideologies neatly aligned with Liberal-republicanism but does not seem to be as common in anarchism. Anarchists are usually smart enough to figure out that European fascisms and Bolshevism aren't the same thing and that they need to oppose each of them differently. However, there can also be times when Western-Marxists manage to not figure this out. This is directly tied to complex divisions inside the world's various Marxisms. Within the First World, Marxism tends to be more neatly restricted to a small subset of educated people while uneducated people and some swaths of academia alike are actively programmed with misinformation and discouraged from learning accurate information by every individual around them. This produces two distinct divisions of Marxists who manage to cut through all the misinformation: Marxists who broadly understand Leninism, akin to Trotsky within his own words or to Gramsci circa 1920, and "Marxists" who actively try to pretend Leninism somehow isn't Marxism. These non-Leninists are sometimes referred to as "Western Marxists", although technically speaking this label is misleading because Western Marxism can also refer to Gramscianism, an ideology which regardless of its real-world effectiveness definitely does present the possibility of realizing itself as a Leninist structure. A hypothetical Gramscian revolution looks like non-fascists all banding together into a social-democratic subpopulation hidden quietly inside society that at some point eventually filters out the anticommunists and transforms into a Marxist party-nation, becoming a Bolshevism. Thus, there is a decent question of whether Western Marxism is even all one category or whether it consists of the distinct category of Gramscianism and at least one distinct category of non-Leninist "Marxism" which is dubious in whether it is even Marxism.
Tik's Marxism[edit]
An interesting tangent that may be worth thinking about is when people try to push this motif which Marxism it is that they would be trying to define all of Marxism from within. Tik clearly does not consider Juche-socialism to be an adequate Marxist theory because he does not think a Marxist party-nation can be meaningfully combined with its society and national culture. [1] He equally does not seem to be advancing a mainstream Marxist-Leninist definition in how much fear of central government even representing a population his definition of "public" implies. [1] There may be an argument that Tik is operating from inside a Trotskyist definition of Marxism if one takes his opposition to state businesses as being a Marxist position, although to be properly advancing Trotskyism he would have to imply that all real Marxists do not believe in borders or nation-states.
TIK's stated sources include Marx, Engels, and Luxemburg, in addition to a number of right-Liberal sources which for the purposes of this question can be disregarded.
Identitarian fascisms[edit]
There can be a few edge cases where some groups of people believe an ideology that outwardly presents itself like a variant of Marxism, but which contains no Leninist content and is closer to containing only nationalist content. One of the first cases of an ideology appearing to be Marxist but containing no Leninist content was the 1930s Trotskyite conspiracy — although this event had nothing to do with nationalism in particular, the overall membership of the conspiracy contained very few Leninists. Likewise, there can be organizations that outwardly appear to be Marxist but which only have this as an appearance within the kinds of countries which were once exposed to Marxism but where Marxism was defeated. In Russia, in particular, people were exposed to Communist imagery for decades, but this did not always result in everybody learning and embracing Marxism. As the overall structure of the Soviet Union crumbled for various different reasons, there came to be fewer Marxists and more nationalists, yet there was nothing really stopping anyone from appropriating Communist imagery to mean entirely different things than it originally meant. The circumstances of history create new situations such that situations that were not common in one period become common in another.
Thus, it it is fully possible that someone living in 1920 could say "Communists and fascists are the same!" but this statement would generally not be accurate to most Marxist organizations in 1920, while someone living in 2020 could say the same statement but happen to be standing in Russia in a time where highly nationalist countries full of what amounts to fascist ideological content are confusedly attempting to create Marxist parties and thus only in 2020 do there actually exist some number of "fake" Marxist parties where the statement "Marxists are the same as fascists!" is accurate.
This motif does not refer to Identitarian fascisms. It does not refer to cases where a nominally Marxist organization contains what is obviously reactionary-nationalist content, and in terms of its goals is actually a nationalist party. If a party is a nationalist party, then it is not a Communist party, and it cannot be a Communist party concealing horseshoe theory. Some Liberal-republicans may find this confusing because they do not understand how metaphysical categorizations can be transformed into Materialism and made objective. Here is the short version: if you can tell the difference between water and gasoline, you know that different large assortments of tiny individuals can have different physical content. If the content of water and the content of gasoline were the same, you could drink gasoline. But gasoline contains inner structures such as octane and water itself only contains the ionic compound dihydrogen monoxide.